Saturday, April 21, 2012

Bhagadvad Gita-As it is or As it is NOT..

"There are two classes of men, namely the devotee and the demonThis is what Prabhupada writes about non believers in this book Bhagavad Gita As It Is, it is a translation and commentary by Prabhupada who was founder of International Society of Krishna Consciousnesses (ISKON). This book is one of the many translations of Bhagavad Gita available in English and has been translated in almost 60 or more languages. In complete editions of this book (almost 900 pages), for each verse from Gita it includes, the verse in Devanagari script, a Latin transliteration, word-for-word meanings (Sanskrit-English) and English translation of the verse. This is followed by extensive commentary by Prabhupada for most of the verses (purport). This book is extensively distributed by ISKON and is a central theme of their teachings and beliefs. ISKON members also believe this book to be authoritative and literally true. I started reading this book when I was looking for some reliable translation of Gita in English because my Sanskrit knowledge is very limited. Lack of knowledge of Sanskrit language can not be a hindrance to study and understand most of the Vedik knowledge today. There are many translations of these works available in English and many other languages, many of them are from very reliable sources, one can read them and compare to get essence of Vedik teachings (or any ancient philosophy).

This particular book about which I am writing today was recently in news; a group linked to Christian Orthodox Church had demanded a ban of this book. They claimed that the text was "extremist" literature full of hatred and insult to non-believers which promoted social discord. The case had drawn a flurry of criticism from Hindus across the world, even Indian parliament took note of this case and expressed its concern over 'ban on Gita'. Russian court finally dismissed that petition seeking a ban (very proper decision according to me). But I was not surprised to see this news of request a ban on this book. I am personally against the ban on any book or article or movie etc. Some how India (even though a democracy) has history of banning some books which carry some sensitive matter against some religion or iconic figures (like Gandhi, Ambedkar, Shivaji Maharaj, popular politicians, religious leaders, etc.). List of banned books include, The Satanic Verses, The Polyester Prince, Shivaji-The Hindu King in Islamic India and few more. I decided to study this book to see what people found 'extremist' or 'full of hatred' in this book. I knew that Bhagavad Gita is not in any way extremist or full of hatred, people can agree or disagree with things mentioned in Bhagavad Gita, but this is true with any religious scripture. So I was wondering how come people got this impression (that it propagates hatred) from its translation and that too translation by a person who founded society like ISKON which claims to teach Bhakti, love, non-violence and does some great philanthropic activities.

From preface itself I started to feel the aggressive tone of the author and his total dismissal of others work in same field. Prabhupad writes “Before my presentation of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, almost all the English editions of Bhagavad-gita were introduced to fulfill someone’s personal ambition.” I have nothing against aggressive tone or author praising his/her own work, but dismissing others work totally without any substantial evidence is completely wrong according to me, even great scientists or Nobel laureates don’t have such attitude towards their competitors. He further writes “Unfortunately, mundane wranglers have taken advantage of Bhagavad-geeta to push forward their demonic propensities and mislead people”

This was just beginning as I read more I found many more views like this expressed in this book. As I said nothing wrong in praising your own work, or highlighting good aspects of your philosophy/ideology but I don’t think it’s right to demean your fellow writers like this. Let’s see what views are expressed about women in the book,

Prakriti is female, and she is controlled by the Lord just as the activities of a wife are controlled by the husband. I am sure many husbands wish that this was true..:) now let's look at his other comment about women.

In purport of Text 1.40 (chapter 1, verse 40) he writes,
As children are very prone to be misled, women are similarly very prone to degradation. Therefore, both children and women require protection by the elder members of the family. By being engaged in various religious practices, women will not be misled into adultery. According to Chanakya Pandiita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy. So the different family traditions of religious activities should always engage them, and thus their chastity and devotion will give birth to a good population eligible for participating in the varnäsrama system. On the failure of such varnäsrama-dharma, naturally the women become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery is indulged in at the risk of unwanted population.”

Seriously? Are you kidding me? in what way women are more prone to degradation than men? On what basis he agrees with the opinion that they are not very intelligent and trustworthy? Prabhupad might have had some bad experiences with women in his life but that doesn’t give him right to comment something like this about all women, that too in a book where he claims to teach Gita as it is. I am surprised that feminist people and groups are not up with arms against these statements (normally they are very good at it), may be they think it's not worth their attention.

Now let’s see what he writes about non-believers of his philosophy,

Purpot of Text 3.3
There are two classes of men, namely the devotee and the demon. There are a number of editions of this great book of knowledge. Some of them have commentaries by the devotees, and some of them have commentaries by the demons. Commentation by the devotees is real, whereas that of the demons is useless.
(So the world is conveniently divided in two type of people, one who believe in his teachings and philosophy and others DEMONS, very kind way to address your fellow human beings)

Purport of Text 3.4
That Krishna is the supreme authority is accepted by the whole world, not only at present but from time immemorial, and the demons alone reject Him.
(text 3.5) a nondevotee or a demon cannot understand this transcendental nature. Consequently these descriptions in the Gita cannot be understood by demonic brains.

If this is not Hatred about non-believers then I wonder what is it? World demon is used for non believers (even for other translators of Bhagavad Gita), it appears many times describing non-believers in this purport and also at different places in the book.

I can go on like this; there are many sentences in the book, which will make one wonder, whether author want to teach love or hatred towards other communities? How come Indian Government which is so sensitive towards minority's feelings didn't find this book offensive towards them who don’t believe in Krishna and his superiority? The objection (or demand of ban) was not on Bhagavad Gita as it was projected in media but was on this book which is more than 90% purports by Prabhupad but the book claims to tell us real meaning of Bhagavad Gita (very clever marketing trick). It’s the purports which constitute most of the book in complete edition (>90%). Translation part given in this book is good and mostly comparable with all other translations of Gita, but his interpretation of Gita verses in Prabhupad’s purports is the real problem. He propagates his own views and ideas in the name of Gita very aggressively (the same thing for which he blamed others). I request readers of my blog to read the book themselves and decide if I am right or wrong. It's definitely not Gita as it is but what Prabhupada wants it to be, his purports spoil this book completely. This book is not only about Gita but it’s mostly a promotion of Hare Krishna movement’s cult beliefs. Bhagavad Gita doesn't teach such fundamentalist sectarian narrow view, but if I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks a lot for reading and please share your comments. 

Links:
1. http://vedabase.net/bg/ (for Bhagavad Gita- As it is)

[Copyright: Vinay Thakur. Please contact the author for re-posting or publishing]

64 comments:

  1. Comparison of four popular translations of Bhagavad Gita is nicely presented here,
    http://www.gita-society.com/hare_krishna.htm

    its only comparison of translation part, authors interpretations are not included.

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    1. Hi Vinay...you have given ur opinions on so many subject matters...i have read some of them....regarding religion,science,krishna,bhagavadgita,god etc.
      The point i want to ask u is that---Are ur opinion writings- regarding god, bhagavdgita,religion etc, is just a hobby or u r really seeking the purpose of religion, purpose of human life???
      If its just a hobby,then i don't want to comment anything, but if u r really seeking the essence....then let me try to help u---->
      The Bhagavadgita As It Is-written by srila prabhupada is definitely a perfect guide for humanity...
      Its really difficult to convey & discuss the topics of it through such writings....
      but please visit this website & ask ur questions related to bhagavadgita, prabhupada etc.---http://www.thespiritualscientist.com/
      Life is short....& nobody knows when it is going to end....the time which u have with u----don't spend it by simply giving opinions....
      Realize the essence of human life & practice the process to achieve the perfection of human life...
      The way u have given opinions on prabhupada's writing....i wish u could have understood his instructions & followed it....
      anyways i hope u will go through the website....& will get ur all questions answered....
      Thanks....hope writing opinions on different topics is not just ur hobby....& u r really seeking the purpose of human life....

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    2. Thanks a lot for sharing your views on this topic. Sharing my opinions in form of blog is not just a hobby but is my way of contributing something towards society. I share the ideas and my opinions on various issues via this blog. I am glad that you found the way of life which you want to live in Prabhupad's books and are following it but I didn't and I think I am not the only one there are many who are living wonderful live without even knowing that Prabhupad or his book even exists. I don't agree that the real essence of human life & practice the process to achieve the perfection of human life...we are not perfect that is why we are humans, there is nothing called perfect human, if at all they are they only exist in books.

      I only wrote about the part of book which I have read and understood, if you find there is something wrong with my understanding or if you don't agree with opinion expressed in blog you are free to disagree and present your own counter opinion, I would be interested in reading it. Thanks for sharing the website, actually I remember it visiting in past during my research about ISKON. I hope at lest some people will find it useful as it was of very limited use for me. Thanks again for sharing your views and as I said I will be interested in reading why you think that views which I expressed about Probhupad's opinion about women are wrong.

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    3. Hi Vinay....The purpose behind practicing the process to achieve the perfection of human life is not to become a perfect human. It is to revive our lost relationship with the Supreme Lord,Krishna.
      I am quite sure that u have not read Bhagavadgita As It Is, completely. Any person who reads Bhagavadgita As It Is even once, will immediately understands Who is he? Who is God? What is his relationship with God? & the most amazing part- How to revive that lost relationship with God (the perfection of life) devoid of which one suffers in one's life?

      Bhagavadgita written by Prabhupada is titled as "As It Is", & u can realize this very easily because u will find no other purpose behind his purports/commentary given on Bhagavadgita, which takes a person away from understanding God & his relationship with God.
      You read different Bhagavadgitas available in the market & also read Bhagavadgita As It Is by prabhupada & then realize.

      Prabhupada had not written that- Women are wrong. Don't misinterpret it as the hatred to the women class when it is said that women are less intelligent. The term intelligence is not used in terms of understanding the topics & concepts of educational studies. Whereas it is written because women can be allured & taken into faith by using flowery words glorifying their beauty (few % women in the metro cities can be exception to this, but i am talking about the majority of women). Infact men use such techniques to misuse them. Therefore it is stated in Bhagavadgita As It Is that- women are more prone to degradation & women should be always under protection.
      & also one thing we can not deny that generally men are much stronger than women PHYSICALLY. Hence women must be given sufficient protection. It is not the restriction to the freedom of women. It is for their safety only.
      Both men & women are best at their own place. Infact prabhupada has welcomed all classes of men & women in his society ISKCON. He has not put any restriction to any class based on sexuality, nation, cast, colour, religion etc. He has distributed the message of Bhagavadgita equally to everyone during his lifetime & now his disciples are carrying out his mission in his absence today.
      Please read BhagavadGita-As It Is completely....I am sure you will definitely explore yourself to the newer dimensions of life.....
      In case of any doubts, plz go to ur nearest ISKCON center & discuss ur opinions, doubts....because I personally feel that it is very difficult to convey someone or to clarify someone's doubts through such writings in blogs.....Happy Reading.....Take care.....



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    4. Thanks again for your comment, I object to the very point that women are more prone to degradation than men. Do you or Prabhupad have any creditable or scientific evidence for this. Rather I see men easily brainwashed to become terrorists, blow themselves up to kill innocents but even after that I can't say that men are more prone to get brainwashed compared to women. Women should be always under protection against whom? Men, right...then who is more prone to degradation, women who get attacked or men who attack? I believe women and men both are equal and that is why I oppose any gender stereotype.

      I tried my best to read this book but page after page it was pouring venom against non believers, making some derogatory statements about women that I couldn't take it any more, as I wrote in my post translation is OK but purports are just horrible, too much hatred in it for a person like me to tolerate. But I am glad that you found this book useful. I am happy for you, this book is not for me. I do explore new dimensions of life every day, there are many books who help me in doing this.

      I attended many ISKON gatherings and talked with many people associated with it, they just don't have enough patience to listen to criticism or to answer difficult questions. They just brand you atheist or non believer if you question too much. Thanks for this advise but I already tried this and it didnt work. Again thanks for sharing your opinion. Take care and keep exploring.

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  2. http://themelononline.com/2008/12/battle-for-authenticity-a-reading-of-the-bhagavad-gita/

    http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Articles/swami-maharaj.html

    http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100328062530AA59tVe

    All interesting links...

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  3. Namaste,

    Your misinterpretation of the purports by Prabhupada is an insult to western women converts to Hinduism, infact any women who have read the book and have found nothing wrong with him. As you say yourself [[I am surprised that feminist people and groups are not up with arms against these statements]]
    because they have CORRECTLY understood the meanings You indirectly presumed they are all dumb.

    You also insult the intelligence of other authors who as far as I know have not complained of him or his work because he demeans them. He doesn’t.

    You presume you understand better than intelligent men who have read the book and those within the Indian Government by making all these negative comments.

    You have presented an article which presumes you are far superior in knowledge to all of these people and ESPECIALLY their followers. His followers are not dumb. The purport about women must be read in conjunction with the slokas before and after and the concerns why Arjuna himself raised. You have to understand the culture at the time and culture today.

    The other misinterpretations are just that –total lack of understanding of Knowledge given by Praphupada. Then you write how wonderful and peace loving and great the Hare Krishna followers are [[…….society like ISKON which teaches Bhakti, love, non-violence and does some great philanthropic activities.]]] This is double talk.

    You sound like you support the banning of the book and act on behalf of the Christians who hate this book.

    Any book or anyone can be made to look racist violent hateful by simply extracting bits here and there.

    Kiran
    3~'

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    1. Thanks Kiran for your reply.
      [You also insult the intelligence of other authors who as far as I know have not complained of him or his work because he demeans them. He doesn’t.]
      then what is this,
      "Before my presentation of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, almost all the English editions of Bhagavad-gita were introduced to fulfill someone’s personal ambition.Unfortunately, mundane wranglers have taken advantage of Bhagavad-geeta to push forward their demonic propensities and mislead people”

      [Your misinterpretation of the purports by Prabhupada is an insult to western women converts to Hinduism, infact any women who have read the book and have found nothing wrong with him.]

      I did not interpret anything, I just quoted the text as it appears in the book, if women who read the book didn't find anything wrong in those lines, then something must be wrong with them, because I found those lines very mean and offensive towards women. I am interested to know why they don't find anything wrong in them, may be you can talk with few of them and please explain it to me. I will try to get their opinion whenever I get chance and post it on blog for sure.

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    2. I am a woman, and I find those teaching immensely offensive and destructive, and so do all of my family and friends. Thank you Vinay for your voice of sanity and all the good work you do. I can only pray people's hearts will speak to them and understand the harm being spread in these books.

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    3. Thanks for sharing your views. We all need to raise our voices whenever we see gender bias or stereotyping of particular gender or community or race. Silence many times is considered as silent approval thats why it is important to speak up. Thats why I thank again for raising your objection about such misogynist views.

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  4. Namastey Kiran,
    Good to read your comment, I was expecting someone to explain what Prabhupad meant by these lines in his book. I am glad that you came to my help.

    I read verses for which he wrote these purpots. I didn't find anything which comments about women in general (at least in verse) but he is clearly talking about women as a class here. Please explain to me when he says "women are similarly very prone to degradation" in what way they are more prone to degradation than men? on what basis men think that they are superior to women? Whats wrong if women mix with men? What he mean by unwanted population? there are many questions like this but lets start with these few.

    I dont support ban on ANY BOOK, everyone has right to express their opinion. I am doing the same thing, you are also doing same thing, why can't Prabhupad do it. I am totally in favor of freedom of expression. That's why I am expressing my disagreement with the views he expressed in his book. I am not asking to ban the book, I am debating and questioning the views which is my right.

    Most of the authors he ridiculed (other translators or interpreters of Gita) were dead or were not aware of this book when it came into publication, so forget about them protesting.

    As far as I understand Prabhupad is not talking about Hindutwa in this book, so people might become ISKON member after reading this book but not HINDU. And if his followers don't see anything wrong in these lines then I am sorry to say they must be dumb as you said...

    As far as people not protesting about this book, people don't protest about many bad things which happen around them. Untouchability, child marriage, casteism, dowry killings, Sati, women suppression, slavery, atomic bombings all happened (and is still happening) in societies and countries where many intelligent people live, but many don't protest. It requires desire and lot of courage to do that, may be many intelligent people don't have that, that's not my fault. If I see anything wrong, I call it wrong. Be it in Bible, Qur'an or Gita or any other book.

    I am not acting on behalf of Christians or any one. I don't think they need me to act on their behalf. I don't know why they hate this book. I don't hate this book. Whats the problem when I praise good work done by ISKON, it might be your way to see things in totally good or totally bad lighty, I praise whatever I find good and at the same time criticize whatever is wrong.

    May be you can explain true meaning of above mentioned lines from post to us and stop me and many people from believing that this book is racist (about women) and preaches hatred about non believers (demons, as per book).

    Vinay

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    1. I also find your statement surprising that Christians hate this book (Bhagavad Gita-as it is), by saying this don't you think you are insulting many wonderful people believing in that religion....may be this is result of either all good or all bad philosophy...

      I will just mention few more parts of the book which sound little odd to me, may be you might be able to throw some light on them

      "The hands, legs, eyes, and so on are all parts of the body, but they are not actually the enjoyers. The stomach is the enjoyer. The legs move, the hands supply food, the teeth chew, and all parts of the body are engaged in satisfying the stomach because the stomach is the principal factor that nourishes the body’s organization."
      what does he want to say here? doesn't he know that there is brain in our body which is ultimate enjoyer?

      "Vedic knowledge is not a question of research. Our research work is imperfect because we are researching things with imperfect senses"
      Isn't this insult to all scientist who dedicate their lives in research for the benefit of human kind and society? Our senses are not imperfect but they have limited range, and we have invented devises who allow us to overcome their limitations, there is difference between imperfect and limited...

      There are many like this, I just mentioned few of them. Lets start with these them we can proceed further.

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    2. there is typo in post...in bad light not lighty...:)

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    3. Hi Vinay....In Bhagavadgita As It Is, prabhupada gives the analogy of--hand,legs & stomach to explain that Krishna is the ultimate enjoyer (stomach) & our (all living souls) happiness lies in making Krishna happy.
      Analogies are given for the purpose of clarification or to make reader understand the concept more easily by meaningful comparison.
      Here obviously, this analogy is not given to claim the stomach more important than brain. It is just an analogy to make reader understand that Krishna is the ultimate enjoyer.

      It is a fact that we have imperfect senses...the senses are stated as imperfect because they are limited....With the limited senses, u r obviously getting the limited truth only.
      It is your interpretation that u think scientists will get insulted by accepting the imperfectness of our senses. Scientists themselves also agree that they can not go beyond their limitations of senses or go beyond the limitations of a device which they invented to do research work. Where is the question of any kind of insult????
      & on the other hand Vedic knowledge is not a kind of research work done by some scientists. They are the universal truths. So many scientists raised the question on this knowledge & its authenticity with their imperfect senses but they later accepted their defeat when they invented the devices that do research work beyond the limited/imperfect senses.

      For e.g- Before knowing the amazing facts & benefits of cow dung & cow urine through modern lab facilities, the scientists would laugh at Indians by seeing that Indians are drinking cow urine & using cow dung for decorating houses which is nothing but a stool & urine of a cow.
      In vedic knowledge also, it is written that stool & urine of animals should not be touched but except a Cow.
      The same scientists later with their so called advanced lab facilities found that there are amazing antiseptic benefits that can be derived from cow dung & cow urine.
      Another example is--scientists claimed that trees don't have life but it is already stated in our vedic scriptures that trees also have lives. Later it is proved by scientists that trees also have lives.
      The step by step growth of embryo in the womb of mother was already explained to greater extent in our vedic scriptures & later with the technology when the scientist studied it then it exactly matched what is already specified in our scriptures.
      There are so many amazing facts in our vedic scriptures which gives clear understanding & perfect knowledge in all the areas.
      Prabhupada was never against scientists, they are surely contributing towards the society. But if they challenge the authenticity of vedic scriptures with their imperfect senses, then they themselves will get insulted in future....
      Plz read BhagavadGita-As It Is completely....& discuss ur opinions & doubts by visiting ur nearest iskcon centre....because it is difficult to convey someone or clarify someone's doubts through such writings.....

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    4. can you cite the paper where scientists claim that trees don't have life. From my school days I was taught in science that trees are living things, not only they have life but also they can sense the things. So please share a reliable reference to validate your claim. Thanks in advance for your efforts.

      Also please share the reference from Vedas where embryology was described in detail, even Dr. Zakir Naik claims that it is described in Quran but we all know it it a imaginary hypothesis. I wonder if vedas contain so much science why scholars of Vedas like Prabhupad couldn't make any path breaking scientific discovery and publish a paper in reputed scientific journal? For that matter why not any of major scientific discoveries came from land of vedas? Why we alwys wait for someone else to discover things and then pathetically try to claim that it was already mentioned in vedas. I don't see anyone now drinking cow urine even in India now, no modern homes in India use cow dunk to decorate their homes, may be you don't know this but as I visit India regularly I know these things.

      Senses are perfect they do what they are supposed to do but people are not perfect. Science can challenge anything and every thing thats the beauty of science and basic spirit of it, true scientist doesn't accept anything without reliable evidence and reproducible data no matter from which source it is coming. I hope you understand this basic principle of science, if you do you won't find odd scientists questioning vedas, Gita or any other book.

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    5. Hi Vinay....sorry for late reply,I was quite busy....
      Since it is taught in your school days that trees have life doesn't mean that it is considered from time beginning. Trees were considered as non-living entities till Dr.Jagadish Chadra Bose discoverd it.(Refer Wikipedia for details)

      Reference for embryology is "Srimad Bhagavatam"(Canto-3, Chapter 31, Verse no. 2 to 27). Believe me I have personally read it & I have also read embryo development by Dr. Franklin P. Mall (who introduced the staging of human embryos in the year of 1914)

      You can purchase "Srimad Bhagavatam" which is available in all ISKCON temples.

      Vedas contain science in each & every field like astronomy, biology, physics, sociology etc. & also contain the science of god & our relation with god. If u read "Srimad Bhagavatam" then u will realize that the only depriving thing in the human society is God consciousness because of which there is suffering & for this reason only Prabhupada travelled all over the world spreading the message of Lord Krishna. He preached the message of Bhagavadgita, Bhagavatam & explained it in his books in simple language so that we can easily understand our lost relationship with krishna. Prabhupada was scholar in vedas knowing the science but instead of publishing papers in scientific journals, he preached the essence & purpose of human life for which only, vedas are meant for.

      Modern India has degraded in its social culture that is why we find no care, protection for cows instead we find cats & dogs. If no one is drinking cow urine, that doesn't reduce the benefits of cow urine. But you will find it in villages surely...I have seen it & I drink cow urine daily in mornig called as "Gomutra". Its benefit are amazing & approved by science (https://cowurinebenefit.wordpress.com/2012/10/06/cow-urine-benefits/)

      Please don't consider me as if I am against science or scientist.( For your information, I am an Electronics engineer.) I respect science & scientist both. The only problem is that scientists are making no effort in understanding the science of god & our relationship with god which is very well explained in the vedas like Bhagavadgita & Srimad Bhagavatam.
      By reading your words, I think you have staunch faith in science & scientists. It is good. But have at least little faith in the vedas & read Bhagavadgita & Bhagavatam written by Prabhupada (recommending prabhupada books because easy to understand) which will help you to revive your lost relationship with krishna & thus putting an end to all sufferings which is the real purpose of human life & for which only the vedas are meant for.
      Thank you.....Take Care.....

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    6. Thanks again for your reply. I visited the web page mentioned in your comment it has many vague and unverified claims because it didn't give any scientific data or clinical trial data to prove that cow urine is effective in curing any known disease. If it is so effective then why it is not sold in drug stores with proper label like any other drug in the market? Why not to get FDA approval and launch such a useful multipurpose drug in world market so that everyone can benefit from it? After all if they have the data no one can reject it, so please let me know why they didnt do this?

      I have gone through most of the books which you mentioned in your comment and I found some of them with some useful content but most of them are quite dated and not very useful for me. None of them I found totally scientific. I love reading books and have read many inspiring books which helped me immensely but if I recommend any book read by me to others I understand that they may or may not like it as much I liked it and this is how it works. So I am glad that those books are useful to you but not for me.

      Scientist is not just a label or a profession but mainly it is a way of thinking. Anyone with scientific aptitude can be a scientist, they don't need any degree for that. I see many science graduates or even PhDs who lack scientific aptitude in their day to day life. They might be brilliant in their subject but somehow lack scientific aptitude. So once you accept anything without proper, verifiable and reproducible data you abandon your scientific aptitude and cease to exist as a scientist. There is nothing like science of god. God is a mythological entity and that is why it doesn't have any place in world of science, any true scientist will understand this and won't mix science with mythology. Thanks a lot again for sharing your views.

      http://selfrealization-vinay.blogspot.com/2014/11/mythology-is-not-science.html

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    7. Hi Vinay.....
      Thanks for your reply.....
      It was nice interacting & sharing view with you.....
      Take care & All the best.....

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  5. Hi Vinay,

    Was curious to know your views on verse 7.15 from Bhagvad Gita:

    Here is the translation from Gita Press publications:

    "Those whose wisdom has been carried away by maya, and are of demoniac nature, such foolish and vile men of evil deeds do not adore me."

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    1. Thanks a lot Ankur for your comment, I did not understand your question clearly, I am sorry for that. Do you want to know what I think about this verse or want me to elaborate on it or want to point out to me that other translators also address 'Evil' who do not adore Krishna...but lets give it a try..

      Here 'Me' is not Krishna or Allah or any other name, its general term for God or humanity. Word demoniac still sounds little harsh to me but I know that this piece of literature was written in certain era and time when use of these type of words might be very common and prominent.

      In next verse author writes about four types of people who seek or worship God "man in distress, the seeker for knowledge, the seeker for wealth and the man of wisdom" (lines from Radhakrishnan's translation). I don't think there is anyone in this world who doesn't fit in one of these categories. So author is very inclusive in his approach and don't want to exclude anyone. Anyone who is in any of above mentioned category he/she is seeking God, by what name they call, what way they take is entirely up to them. That's why I understand from these lines. If you think they mean something else, please let me know I would like to learn and get more information.

      To my surprise there is lot of research done on these books about which people in India are not even aware of, these books (and most of religious books) have become too sacred to criticize, analyze or even it's wrong to say any word against them but there is vast amount of literature available which analyze these book very nicely (without taking any sides) and worth to read. I hope you are aware of this do read them if you get a chance.

      Delete
    2. I am trying to point out that the word "demon" has been used by Krishna for those who do not adore Him. Any translation, which does not use this word for non-believers in their translation, is perverted. Use of the word “Demon” by Prabhupad therefore is a proof that He Has presented Gita, As It IS, and not a mundane interpretation. Even at the risk of being termed ‘harsh’ he presented the facts as they have been spoken by Krishna unlike other interpreters who present their perspective in order to make it more palatable.
      I asked your interpretation of the verse to point out the difference between ‘as it is’ version and interpretation. An interpretation is different from what Krishna is speaking. For instance in your perspective :
      “Here 'Me' is not Krishna or Allah or any other name, its general term for God or humanity”.
      This is not what Krishna is saying. Here, Krishna is the speaker and ‘Me’ certainly refers to Him!
      What other versions of Gita mostly do is that they present their perspective, which, is not what Krishna is actually saying. Even though, this might give the authors of these versions widespread appreciation and fame, since they twist the facts to make it sound more pleasant and put it in line with the dominant worldview, it is not Bhagvad Gita.
      These interpretations mostly come from people who are atheists and hence are not eligible to put their ‘totally twisted ‘perspective in public domain by the title ‘Bhagvad Gita’. Bhagvad Gita literally means “The song of God” and hence someone who does not believe in God is totally ineligible to comment on it.
      The use of the word ‘demon’ is also justified for such people. You have to understand the meaning of the word ‘demon’ to understand that. The main quality of demons is that they think of themselves to be supreme and do not believe that there is someone superior (God) to them. Hence they are constantly engaged in thrashing people’s belief on God. Athiests commenting on Bhagvad Gita (or on any scripture dealing with God) are essentially doing the same. They are propogating their atheistic agenda using books, which are meant to strengthen people’s belief in God.

      Delete
    3. In your view,
      “Here 'Me' is not Krishna or Allah or any other name, its general term for God or humanity”.
      You are right in pointing out that ‘Me’ is general term for God since Krishna and God is same. Krishna is one name of God. But you are so wrong in thinking that God and Humanity are same!!
      Significant portion of Gita is dedicated to explaining the difference between God (Brahma) and living entities (Jiva). Humanity is a subsection of living entities.
      “In next verse author writes about four types of people who seek or worship God "man in distress, the seeker for knowledge, the seeker for wealth and the man of wisdom" (lines from Radhakrishnan's translation). I don't think there is anyone in this world who doesn't fit in one of these categories. So author is very inclusive in his approach and don't want to exclude anyone. Anyone who is in any of above mentioned category he/she is seeking God, by what name they call, what way they take is entirely up to them. That's why I understand from these lines. If you think they mean something else, please let me know I would like to learn and get more information.”
      “ I don't think there is anyone in this world who doesn't fit in one of these categories”
      Very wrong!! Atheists do not fall in any of these categories. The word demon has been used for them. Anyone who falls in the aforementioned category, no matter how he addresses God (Krishna or Allaha), are called devotees. Devotee is not the term for followers of ISKCON. Hence Krishna himself has divided the world in 2 sections, devotees and demons and Praphupad is simply stating what Krishna has said. Therefore, Bhagvad Gita – As It Is, is very true to its nomenclature.

      Delete
    4. You have claimed at many places that you like to understand the things with an open mind. I would like to point out that this does not seem to be the case. You seem to be overwhelmed with certain malpractices, such as racial and sexual discrimination, that have infested humanity particularly in India. I fully empathize with you and agree that these should not be tolerated.
      However, please understand that a text like Gita does not directly deal with this subject and hence to read it with that perspective would confuse you. I also get an impression that you think that India has been the only place where discrimination was prominent and like Dr. Ambedkar, you seem to hold Vedas as the primeval cause. You would appreciate that discrimination on the basis of skin color have been so prominent in the western world even till this day. To me, the divide between blacks and whites is more visible in New Haven than the divide between Brahmanas and Shudras in India (infact, some of the brahmana and Ksatriya classes want to be declared as Shudras, so that they can avail reservations )!! Westerners do not follow vedas, right?
      Please understand, that discrimination is result of human nature to think oneself superior than the others. Vedas have simply been exploited by people with such propensities in India to serve their purpose. Hence, changing the scriptures makes no sense. What makes sense is to understand them as they are. If Gita could be understood, as it is, all these problems would automatically be eradicated. This is because it tackles the root cause – ‘human propensity to think oneself superior to others’ and does not suggest superficial ways (changing what is written in the scriptures). Gita simply says, that the living entities are all parts and parcel of the supreme Brahma and hence are all equal. Difference in the skin of color or sex is bodily difference, which is temporary and unimportant (just like the color of dress has no importance with respect to the person wearing it). The soul is the same in every being. If we could understand this, all kinds of discrimination would end at once!
      I would therefore suggest you to come out of superficial issues and understand the root cause of all problems as has been described in Gita. You will find solutions to all the problems.

      Delete
    5. Thanks for your comment Ankur...lets go step by step. You agreed that term 'Me' is not not specific for Krishna or any other name of God which we know but a general term for God and Krishna is one of name of God. And then you say that word 'Demon' is used who do not adore 'HIM' (who is HIM here, Krishna or God in general). Check it properly the word 'Demon' is used by most of the translators. Again read it properly, the post is not about TRANSLATION of Gita its specifically about purports. I still wonder and amazed to see that you guys don't seem to understand that 'As it is' is HIS interpretation of Bhagavad Gita in same way as other commentaries are other's interpretation of Gita.

      I dint tell you what Krishna is saying, you asked for my interpretation or understanding and I told you that. Prabhupad explained HIS understanding in this book, isn't it? You didn't tell me to translate the verse, translation and interpretation are totally different things. I think we all are wise enough to understand this. You can say (and I agree) that he translated Gita as it is (and many people have done that and thanks to all of them that's why we could read it) but didn't present it as it is...I expected much better presentation than this and I know he was capable of doing that.

      Here Krishna (or some person) is not speaking, A character from epic Mahabharat, who is God (Krishna is one of his many names as you said, it's his name from this epic, so God in general) is speaking. So it can be Allah, God from Abrahamic religions, I don't think we can give or attribute any single name or gender to that entity.

      All versions of Gita translate Gita in same way, please read them but every author interprets it differently. Please let me know any translations or interpretations of Gita from a self declared atheist author I am interested in reading it.

      [The main quality of demons is that they think of themselves to be supreme and do not believe that there is someone superior (God) to them]
      I have not met anyone who thinks like that. There are people who believe there is some God (by whatever name they call) superior to them who controls this universe, there are many who believe nature (or universe) is supreme and controls everything, there are some believe there is some power but we don't know who or what it is who is supreme. I didn't get your point, do you have problem with people who don't accept superiority of God, Krishna-the god, or don't accept superiority of any thing? If you see here in Gita, according to you Krishna seems to think there in no one superior to him (when he says I am supreme), do you have problem with that? Jesus thinks that there is no one supreme to whom he call God who he also call his father, do you have problem with that? Mohammad thinks there is no one supreme to Allah? Do you have problem with that? Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and many others name the superior entity by some different names, do you have problem with that? Or you have problem with so called Atheist who question existence of conventional God but believe in some thing else? Let me know as I am little confused with your statement here.

      [They are propogating their atheistic agenda using books, which are meant to strengthen people’s belief in God.]

      How come atheists are propagating some agenda which is meant to strengthen people’s belief in God? And why you have problem if they are doing that? Again you are confusing me here. May be I am missing something but please elaborate little more. I am sorry that I didn't understand this clearly.

      Delete
    6. I couldn't find any term better than Humanity to explain feelings of kindness and benevolence, that's why I used it. I think word God means those feelings. Let me know if you know any better English word to describe those feelings, I would love to use it in my writings so that it wont cause same confusion. Thanks for pointing this out.

      So you think Atheist don't fit in any of the four categories. Boy you love them...I don't know how many so called atheist you know or have interacted with. I think they are people who are after wealth or worldly pleasures, they are in search of knowledge, even many of them are distressed. So they fit in more than one category. Please let me know how atheist don't fit into these (I know Atheists don't mind if you or we say that but I still believe they are with us in this journey and very important part of our community).

      Yes, Krishna divided world in to two parts where its almost impossible to get in to other section of 'demons' so its all inclusive philosophy according to me. I see all devotees around. I know the term is not only for followers of ISKON but if you see closely many ISKON followers think like that...:) Did I question nomenclature of Bhagavad Gita?....I think we are discussing here about its interpretation and purports.

      Delete
    7. I don't believe that my views are the ONLY right ones. I do believe that there can be MORE THAN ONE ways to achieve the same goal, more than one right answers to same question, I said this many times in my comments but I think some how you guys missed it. I wonder if this is not open mindedness then what it is? I think unilateral thinking that I am right everyone else is wrong, just shut up and accept whatever I am saying, don't ask any questions or you don't have any right to say these things....are signs of closed mindedness and I don't think I have that attitude.

      [[ I also get an impression that you think that India has been the only place where discrimination was prominent]]

      I do understand that discrimination is human invention. And I think you are talking here about my post "Who is guilty" where I discussed subject of women and their suppression in little more detail, There, I specifically mentioned in 6th paragraph of post,

      (This article is not against Hinduism or any society or culture or country. I was born in Hindu family and lived my most of life in India, that's why my most experiences are from there. Its my motherland, a beautiful place and lovely country. I am sure people from other religions and countries must have faced or seen similar situations in their life and might have felt similar pain.)

      these lines were there to avoid same misunderstanding that I am criticizing any particular country, religion or culture here. I think this will clear your misunderstanding that I think it's only India where all this happens.

      I am trying to address root cause of the problem and I agree to most of the points you wrote in last paragraph of your comment. For me there are no Brahmins or Shudras in this world, all are same for me. Discrimination is discrimination to me, I can't comment if Black against White is more visible discrimination in US compared to upper casts against lower casts in India, I don't see any difference in attitude or intensity. For me racial discrimination and women suppression are not superficial issues. According to me religion in its pure or original form might not have been harmful, but we have to tackle what it is now and not what it could have been. Misunderstandings about these books need to be dealt with similar way.

      [If Gita could be understood, as it is, all these problems would automatically be eradicated.]

      do you really think that? It seems Gita was delivered in the middle of all these problems. These problems were there when Krishna was supposed to be on this earth and they will be here in future also. He couldn't eradicate them totally and I don't think we can, but we can minimize them and fight them wherever we face them. I am doing that only. As Mahabharat says its a continuous war between dharma and adharma, it will continue like this.

      Delete
    8. Also Thanks to you both, Kiran and Ankur for your advise of open mindedness to me. I am glad that you guys are not taking the meaning of the words written in purports of this book literally but you might know this that many people do takes word from scholars and their books literally, word by word.

      I hope you guys show same open mindedness what you expect from others when they read your views while reading or listening to others views and opinions. I wish all of us can show that, there are many translations and interpretations of books like Bible and Qur'an which misinterpret some of the lines and spread wrong message. I hope you read them with open mindedness and get benefited from those amazing books. I hope you show same open mindedness towards that orthodox church in Russia which objected to the purports of this book (not the actual translation of Gita) and try to understand their point of view. I appreciate your views and efforts to educate me and thank both of you for that.

      Delete
  6. contd
    5]
    Now lets see where Praphupada got the following sentence from [["There are two classes of men, namely the devotee and the demon"]].
    Are they really his words?
    In the Bhagavad Gita chapter 16 Krishna says :-
    “16.06 There are two types of human beings in this world: the divine, and the demonic. The divine has been described at length, now hear from Me about the demonic, O Arjuna.”
    http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/gita/gita16.htm


    So very quickly your bad thoughts about Prabhupada can be dismissed.


    Now before you head into another attack (perhaps at Krishna and Gita); try to understand that these ‘Demonic and Divine’ qualities are what we all posses. Its within all of us. How can you not understand these simple statements?

    Just think about what is written here before you make comments.
    I hope that clarifies that point.





    6] You write --
    [[[then what is this,
    "Before my presentation of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, almost all the English editions of Bhagavad-gita were introduced to fulfill someone’s personal ambition. Unfortunately, mundane wranglers have taken advantage of Bhagavad-geeta to push forward their demonic propensities and mislead people”]]]

    What he has written is very true. Many authors have certainly written to fulfil their own agenda and ambitions. I write with an agenda and so do you. But he has noticed that some have demonic characteristics shown up within their writings. They write wrong translations and make awful lectures on the meaning to the verses of the Bhagavad Gita yet they dont follow the teachings of the Gita.

    To be honest I would say I find your postings to be of “demonic propensities and mislead people”.
    It’s a typical mundane wrangling of wrongful understanding and knowledge based on finding faults and negativity instead of love and goodness.
    Many authors are doing this all the time and so Prahphupda is 100% correct in his observation.
    Even Jesus said the same thing. He said “Why do you call me ‘Lord Lord’ when you do not follow the things I teach you.”

    Perhaps you will find my posts demonic and of mundane wrangling.
    The point Im making is that it does not make us demons but this how it is explained.


    I know you will find my words harsh; but these are by way of example and not some personal attack. If you can understand this much then we can progress.
    You have asked us readers to make you understand and explain the verses and I have.
    I hope you have the courage to say I am right.
    But if you are solely intent and looking at ‘negatives’ and finding faults in everything I try to explain then nothing will be gained by my postings.

    ----------------------------------------------



    7]
    Now listen further to the reason why these authors are mundane wranglers.
    Many authors do not believe that Krishna is real.
    Some think that Krishna is just a man.
    Some think he is symbolic.
    They look down upon Him.
    They do not follow His words.
    They do not follow his advices.
    They do not follow His teachings.
    They don’t understand Him and yet they think they have the right knowledge to make false interpretations based on their limited knowledge thus twisting the minds of other readers.

    Some of these people are simply intellects with some degree from some University and therefore do not speak from any authority.

    Praphupada is a true follower of Krishna and he understands him well.
    He has a firm Spiritual platform and understanding.
    He comes from a disciplic succession of Gurus going back to Ved Vyas. We can learn a great lessons from such genuine teachers. So we are blessed to have had such a Guru in our lifetime.
    I bow down to this great Guru with respect.

    May I humbly ask you to read with an open mind and try to understand what I am trying to say here. Even if you don’t agree with me, at least try your best to understand.






    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 5]
      First, I don't have any bad thoughts about Prabhupad, a great Sanskrit scholar. We or to be more specific I criticize many people including my friends, loved ones and many criticize me for various reasons, not because of any bad thoughts or they hate me many times for my own good or out of concern. I think I wrote many times that I don't see this world in tow categories Good and Bad, so I don't have bad thoughts about this book or anyone.

      This is not an 'attack' on anyone, this is MY opinion, you are free to interpret them as you like, I respect your opinion, its your right to express it.

      I totally agree with you [ ‘Demonic and Divine’ qualities are what we all posses. Its within all of us]...spot on buddy... that's what I was trying to say all this time, glad that you got it...remember my line, there is nothing totally good or totally bad...I am glad we are heading somewhere, I am glad...this whole exersize is worth doing it..:)

      6]
      Every author writes to fulfill their own agenda, ambitions spread the message which they believe in. All authors including Prabhupad do or did that. I find strange that he is accusing others for the same act he is doing himself. I know you wont agree with this, but that's what I see here. It will be great help for me and readers of my blog, if you can give at least few examples of translations of Gita Prabhupad is talking about, for me all of them (including this one, as far as translation part is concerned) look more or less same. I am not to judge here anyone's writings, this is just my opinion about certain portions in book. My philosophy is all inclusive, not exclusive. I read all translations including this one and find lot of positives and negatives in all of them. I can not be so dismissive about others work my training and upbringing doesn't allow that.

      Thanks for your complement about my blog postings [I find your postings to be of “demonic propensities and mislead people”]. I expected these type of comments from Prabhupad's devotee and you didn't disappoint me.

      I don't find your post 'demonic and of mundane wrangling', your comments are your point of view and you have every right to express it. I respect your opinion. I don't mind any personal attack or criticism and I made this point clear again and again. I am not solely looking at negatives, this post is specifically about what I found objectionable in this book, may be that's why you got this impression. As I wrote first sentence it self makes tone of my post very clear.

      I gain a lot from my readers feedback and comments (including your comments), but feel bad (as well as little sad) that you are not able to get anything out of my posts and comments.

      contd.

      Delete
    2. contd.

      7]
      wow...its great to see that you got convinced by Prabhupad's argument of Krishna being Godhead, supreme lord any word against him is blasphemy..kudos for that..I can see Prabhupad has done really good job here. Simply amazing.

      What is authority..and who has it..everyone is expressing his/her own opinions, where is the question of authority here. My dear friend, this is free world, every person has equal right to speak and express their opinion...sorry to say but days where only authority was allowed to speak are history now. I respect everyone's opinion, everybody have right to speak (degree from any university or not doesn't matter to me), everyone's opinion counts for me. I don't criticize or hate people but only talk about their opinion.

      [Praphupada is a true follower of Krishna and he understands him well. He has a firm Spiritual platform and understanding.]
      may be..I didn't say he is not, I am just questioning his opinions about others. How can be he so sure that others are wrong? And you are talking like he owns Krishna and no one else have any right (oh sorry, authority) to speak or write about Krishna and Bhagavad Gita.

      I believe there can be more than one ways to reach same goal, there can be more than one right answers to same question, if you don't consider this a sign of open mind then I wonder what it is?

      [He comes from a disciplic succession of Gurus going back to Ved Vyas]
      ...oh really...for your kind information I am also from the same succession, but does that make any difference? Does certain lineage or succession provides automatic legitimacy or correctness to one's opinions? I didn't know that it does (maybe according to you it does). Good to read you feel blessed by his presence in your life. I don't worship people or books, I value their teachings and respect their personalities and for me criticism is not insult.

      Delete
  7. contd
    8]
    [[may be you can talk with few of them and please explain it to me.]]

    I am already trying to explain but you think you are wiser then everybody. With such closed minded attitude how can I even begin to explain anything.

    It is you who have problems with women. You need to spend time with the Hare Krishna group and understand them properly so you can understand them.

    Im not your teacher or anyone’s.



    9]

    You say
    [[[I also find your statement surprising that Christians hate this book (Bhagavad Gita-as it is),]]]]

    wait one second!!

    I did not say that. It is you who wrote about some Christian group taking this book to court. So please take time to read what is written and don’t misinterpret my words.

    All you are doing is picking on words from a full sentence or paragraph and making some issue out of it.

    Read what I wrote again and again
    I said
    [[You sound like you support the banning of the book and act on behalf of the Christians who hate this book.]]]

    I am obviously talking about those Christians who took the book to court and NOT THE ENTIORE WORLD OF CHRISTIANS. You really need to read properly and stop taking bits out to turn in into anything negative.

    An apology would be great in this instance.




    10]
    [[["women are similarly very prone to degradation" in what way they are more prone to degradation than men? on what basis men think that they are superior to women? Whats wrong if women mix with men? What he mean by unwanted population?]]


    Firstly lets look at the sloka in chapter 1:40
    When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny.
    http://www.asitis.com/1/40.html



    Lets bring forward the entire purport here.

    [[[Good population in human society is the basic principle for peace, prosperity and spiritual progress in life. The varnasrama religion's principles were so designed that the good population would prevail in society for the general spiritual progress of state and community. Such population depends on the chastity and faithfulness of its womanhood. As children are very prone to be misled, women are similarly very prone to degradation. Therefore, both children and women require protection by the elder members of the family. By being engaged in various religious practices, women will not be misled into adultery. According to Canakya Pandita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy. So, the different family traditions of religious activities should always engage them, and thus their chastity and devotion will give birth to a good population eligible for participating in the varnasrama system. On the failure of such varnasrama-dharma, naturally the women become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery is indulged in at the risk of unwanted population. Irresponsible men also provoke adultery in society, and thus unwanted children flood the human race at the risk of war and pestilence.]]]


    These are woes and concerns from Arjuna and not from Praphupada. It is Arjuna who says all this. But even Arjuna is not saying anything bad --but is rather showing immense concern and very worried about the state of women after the death of so many men in the war. –War Widows.
    How are they treated today?
    How are any widows treated in Indian society today?
    It is society who looks down on women.

    So you have to understand that this verse is what Arjuna is saying and Prabhupada is explaining Arjunas concern.

    If you fail to see this point then there is no further point to make because your mind cannot comprehend it and you should stop writing further blogs.


    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 8]
      I am interested in knowing how women don't feel offended my such remarks. I don't think there is anything wrong in it. Your conclusion that I have problems with women is amazing and all I can do is smile after reading it. This was last thing I expected from you and you did it, you can see in which direction you are heading...:)

      9]
      here is your sentence from your comment,
      [[You sound like you support the banning of the book and act on behalf of the Christians who hate this book.]]]
      you did not say that 'on behalf of those few Christians who misinterpreted or misunderstood the book and want to ban it'
      You specifically said it seems I support banning of the book, which I clearly mentioned I don't...so raising same question again and again won't change my answer.

      [[act on behalf of the Christians who hate this book]]
      I am sorry that I didn't read the words which you didn't write (an apology from my side...you got it man, be happy), I am simple man who go by whatever is presented to me. I try to be clear in my writings as much as possible and do apologize whenever I feel that I failed to do that. I hope you understand what I am saying here. Please be clear whenever you write about certain community or religion. I may not be able to read whatever you wont write so please be clear..(sad.. don't have any divine vision with me)

      10]
      'When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny.
      This is translation of what is written in Gita, I think you know that its in Sanskrit and different people interpret it differently. Whatever he wrote in purport is what HE feels these lines mean ACCORDING TO HIM...
      General spiritual progress of state and community or anything doesn't depends on the chastity and faithfulness of its womanhood alone but of entire race.

      I am sorry I didn't know that all the purports are part of original Gita, I missed that point. Yes Arjun is showing his concern but Prabhupad is expressing his opinion.

      Yes, its society who looks down on women not these lines "women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy"..great job Kiran...keep it up. Women are treated in much better way today than any time in history, still lot need to be done and I am sure this purport is not correct way to go.

      [If you fail to see this point then there is no further point to make because your mind cannot comprehend it and you should stop writing further blogs.]
      thanks for your kind words man..I love them..stop writing..my mind can't comprehend it..simply amazing...I like your judgmental power and desire..shall I advise you to stop reading..stop commenting...stop judging others mind or capabilities...but no..I won't..I don't believe in shutting people up who don't agree with my opinion by telling them to keep quite. I don't believe in this attitude may be you do...good luck..

      I think I should mention this except you, many people liked the blog and encouraged me keep on writing, they might be dumb according to you (sorry to use that word again) but for me their opinion is as important as yours.

      Delete
  8. cntd

    11]
    Here are the verses before and after

    1.39 Why shouldn't we, who clearly see evil in the destruction of the family, think about turning away from this sin, O Krishna?
    1.40 With the destruction of the family, the eternal family traditions are destroyed, and immorality prevails due to the destruction of family traditions.
    1.41 And when immorality prevails, O Krishna, the women of the family become corrupted; when women are corrupted, social problems arise.
    1.42 This brings the family and the slayers of the family to hell, because the spirits of their ancestors are degraded when deprived of ceremonial offerings of rice-ball and water.
    1.43 The everlasting qualities of Varna and family traditions of those who destroy their family are ruined by the sinful act of illegitimacy.
    http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/gita/gita1.htm

    Arjuna does not wish to fight and is concerned the effects it will have on families. He even thinks it will be a sin.
    With destruction of families the traditions are destroyed.
    How?
    Immorality will prevail.
    Why?
    Because the women are corrupted and social problems arise.
    How?
    The women who are upkeepers of family traditions and values in those days will be ruined by sinful act of illegitimacy.
    How does Arjuna know all this?
    Because he has been into many wars and has seen what happed in other towns and cities.
    But why is he concerned only in this war?
    Because his own family is at stake this time. His own friends and families women lives are at risk. His own community could be destroyed as he is thinking it.

    Possibly none of what he is showing concern for may come true but at this moment in time, Arjuna is trying to wrangle his way out of not fighting and he will put any excuse to do this. He suddenly becomes the epitome of morality.



    So Vinay.
    Here you have o understand the picture of whats going on.
    Now what Prabhupada has done and what other authors have done is simply translate those words and expanded them to us. Similarly to what I have just done here. Ie tried to explain each verse.

    It does not make the translator evil nor make his opinions evil.

    EXAMPLE ONLY
    If Hitler in his German speech says “I hate the Jews”
    If I translate to read “I hate the Jews”.
    This does not mean I Kiran the translator who hates the Jews. I am merely pointing out that Hitler said he hates the Jews.
    I might; if I am writing a purport then may expand as to what Hitler finds spiteful about Jews etc etc etc. This does not mean I am teaching hate against Jews.


    What Im trying to explain is you have to separate yourself from the reality and the unreality.


    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I wont mind if you write purport about explaining Hitlers stand or views against Jews and his subsequent actions. I would love to read that. But I will definitely question if you conclude that he was right in thinking so and his actions and concerns or doubts against Jews were legitimate and his actions are justified. But if you believe in those actions then you have every right to express them, I am with you no one can take that right from you.

      I not questioning Prabhupad the translator here...I am questioning Prabhupad the purporter. I say it again that I think we understand the difference between translation and interpretation. I do understand whats going in that chapter of Gita and thanks taking pain for explaining it to me. And don't worry if I find anything objectionable in Bhagavad Gita I will write about that also I won't shy away from that, I think my blog readers will appreciate this attitude.

      Delete
    2. Let me also add few more points here about the verses you discussed in your comment. In those verses Arjun is not expression concern only about women but he is talking about the effect of war of a such a big scale on society. Women getting corrupted and destruction of families, its traditions has nothing to do with women being very prone to degradation (than men) or because they are (or were) not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy. Its all related with after effect of war(where all males are involved), behavior of victorious side's soldiers with women from defeated kingdom, etc. He is talking about effect of WAR not women's character or their nature, then from where all these hings came in purport? I hope he is not trying to say us that war makes women prone to degradation or less intelligent and less trustworthy....and whole degradation things seems to be only focused on sexual exploitation of women (increase of unwanted population), so men have to be equally involved in this act..then how come only women are prone to degradation? Why to single them out in purport when society as a whole is getting corrupted (men as well as women)? As I already said I expected much more better job from scholar like Prabhupad

      Delete
  9. contd
    12]
    SIMILARLY
    When Arjuna says
    When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny.


    Prabhupada is simply explaining it.

    [[[Good population in human society is the basic principle for peace, prosperity and spiritual progress in life.]]]
    True
    How did they ensure this?

    [[[ The varnasrama religion's principles were so designed that the good population would prevail in society for the general spiritual progress of state and community.]]]

    Yes but how?

    [[[Such population depends on the chastity and faithfulness of its womanhood. As children are very prone to be misled, women are similarly very prone to degradation. Therefore, both children and women require protection by the elder members of the family.]]]

    So here we see that women in those days were easily mislead by men with evil intents. Women needed protecting. They also needed to be controlled like children would be controlled by parents.

    So that’s a good thing going on in those days.

    OK Vinay, so you are not convinced.
    Lets read on.


    [[[By being engaged in various religious practices, women will not be misled into adultery.]]]

    Its very obvious that adultery was quite a big issue ib those days.
    I guess adultery is a big issue today too.
    I would not like my wife or child to be led astray.

    Women even today are the keepers of the family tradition and honour. Many women work but many still do not and thus are the upholders of tradition.
    They teach our children the right way of living and codes of conduct. The father is too busy going to work and other past times.
    So a Mother is the centre of the family.
    If the Mother is spoilt then the family more often then not –fails.

    These are obviously generalised opinions because we cannot apply to every individual house.


    [[[[According to Canakya Pandita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy.]]]]

    Chankya was an amazing personality in the history of India. Again his observations takes us closer to the insight of how women were either looked upon or how they really were in THOSE DAYS.
    The key thing to focus is THOSE DAYS.

    Why?

    Because this is a slaoka being described from the perspective of Arjuna and his culture.

    Its possible that those same culture still exist in todays India.
    The key word is ‘possible’.



    [[[ So, the different family traditions of religious activities should always engage them, and thus their chastity and devotion will give birth to a good population eligible for participating in the varnasrama system.]]]

    Good decent knowledge of religion and worship of God should ensure good outcome. Nothing new in this.

    [[[On the failure of such varnasrama-dharma, naturally the women become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery is indulged in at the risk of unwanted population.]]]

    Well true.
    Its goes without saying.

    But why only focus on WOMEN?
    This is because ARJUNA is only focused on the concerns of women in his society.



    [[[ Irresponsible men also provoke adultery in society, and thus unwanted children flood the human race at the risk of war and pestilence.]]]

    But look. Prabphupad even talks of men who must also have the same responsibility—not just women—which Arjuna was only focused on.




    13]
    Now I hope this satisfy your misunderstandings.
    All your questions are answered.

    You just have to read it with a cool head and take yourself away from whatever state of mind you are in.

    There is no racism, hate or whatever your mind has conjured up.

    I hope you will acknowledge your mistake so that other readers will not be mislead too.

    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am reading with cool head, I advise you to read with cool head my posts. If purport is also just translation, then why to spend so many words to tell the same thing whatever you already said in translation of the verse.

      No doubt Chanakya was amazing personality and great intellectual. I read him and follow many of his thoughts. I thought people (at least people from ISKON) believe that Gita is eternal knowledge not limited or restricted to any particular time or period. Key is not THOSE DAYS, but because of such mentality women are looked down even TODAY, may be you are fine with this because great Chanakya said that and Prabhupad seconds this thought but I am NOT....

      Delete
  10. Looks like my postings number 1-4 did not get posted --so here it is again


    Namaste Vinay,

    1]
    No matter what answer I give you, you will not be satisfied as I have found out from our previous brief discussions. You also don’t read what I am saying and instead go straight into a headlong argument about something I have not said and make more useless arguments. Your mind is already set on looking for something negative. For example

    I wrote
    ((((You insult the intelligent of women who found nothing wrong with this book))))
    And in reply you wrote
    [[if women who read the book didn't find anything wrong in those lines, then something must be wrong with them,]]
    Yet another insult to women by calling them dumb and yet you complain about Praphupada. How ironic.
    This is your mundane wrangling. Its even arrogance and I do not write this with intent to offend.

    You further reaffirm your views by saying
    “And if his followers don't see anything wrong in these lines then I am sorry to say they must be dumb”


    2]
    Just read what you have written here
    [[[“I did not interpret anything, I just quoted the text as it appears in the book”]]]
    Your entire blog is about your interpretations, your perspective and your understanding and you have the audacity to make that statement.


    3]
    I also note you have suddenly amended the wordings and title of this article.
    Original title [[[Bhagadvad Gita-As it is, my perspective (is it really Gita as it is)?]]]
    New Title – [[Bhagadvad Gita-As it is or As it is NOT.. ]]]

    The new title suggest you have already judged the Bhagvad Gita as a bad book.
    I guess it makes no difference because either way you hate the Bhagvad Gita As it Is.



    4]
    You also changed the first sentence of your blog to read [["There are two classes of men, namely the devotee and the demon" This is what Prabhupada writes about non believers in this book Bhagavad Gita As It Is,]]

    Its clear that this was added purposely make Prabpuhpada and his book look bad. There was no need to do this.


    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Namastey Kiran,
      And thanks again for your comments and all the effort to explain things in detail. I really appreciate it. First of all I am surprised that you say I didn't read whatever you wrote in your previous comments (about another post), if you check I wrote very detailed responses for all your comments ONLY after reading each and every word you wrote. Rather I was under impression that you didn't read whatever I wrote (may be my comments were too lengthy, too much details) so I guess we both have this misunderstanding about each other, but lets continue this topic.

      I am not looking for something negative, I have found many positives in this book, after all this book is about Bhagavad Gita how much negative you can paint it? Yes, I used harsh words when I say 'something wrong with them'...I dont know where you found word 'Dumb' in it unless you interpreted 'something wrong' as 'dumb'. I feel women are partly responsible for their exploitation and suppression by surrendering to the situation and not realizing their true potential. They were bombarded so long with the false propaganda of them being the 'weaker sex' that they started believing in it. To their credit they fought really hard to get equality in society and they are in much better situation today compared to anytime in history. I don't want those days of women suppression to come back that's why this harsh line out of concern, and yes I do apologize if any women feels offended by it. And the actual use of 'dumb' regarding his followers was out of sarcasm, I totally agree I should have avoided it. The word was used couple of times in your comment and I was writing a reply after reading it and it made its way in my reply too...sorry for that (sometimes my sense of humor creates these type of situations..:)

      Yes my entire blog is about my opinions, interpretations and understandings. I write to share them and get others opinion and views. This is platform to discuss and thats what we are doing. I dont see anything wrong in this. Whatever is in 'italics' is from the book. I think its quite clear from the way I presented what is from book and whats my opinion. Let me know if you have any suggestions to make it more distinct.

      Yes, I edit and modify the post based on my readers feedback and if I feel post needs some modification. I do that to all my posts not only this one and see nothing wrong in it. My posts and opinions might change and that's the way how its going to be. I did that above modification to make the tone of post very clear. I did not judge this book as a bad book, but this post was specific to some parts of the book which I found objectionable. I wanted to make this clear so that people don't start reading this post as some analysis of entire book or about Bhagavad Gita it self. I guess I already mentioned I don't hate any book, including this one.

      You conveniently ignored one highlighted line from post 'Translation part given in this book is good and mostly comparable with all other translations of Gita' His book is very good to read the translation of Gita (not its interpretation). I wanted to make tone my post very clear, it has nothing to do whether I want to make his book look good or bad as I am not the judge, its up to readers to decide. I made this clear many times and I say it again for me nothing (or very few things) are totally good or totally bad. Now lets go with other comments you posted. I read them all, just to make it clear before I proceed...:)

      Delete
    2. Namaste,

      You said
      [[[I think its quite clear from the way I presented what is from book and whats my opinion. Let me know if you have any suggestions to make it more distinct.]]]

      I don’t think it matters how you present the text and your opinions. The whole point about blog writing is that you pick and choose what extracts you wish to see. Ie as soon as you some words you don’t like written in a book your mind seems to focus on it and make the author and the book look bad without even understanding in what context the words are written.

      OK perhaps you may not be learned but when someone explains your wrong understanding you are not prepared to take their opinions on board. All you seem to do is “I am right” and make more arguments.


      CHANGE OF WORDS IN ARTICLES.
      [[Yes, I edit and modify the post based on my readers feedback and if I feel post needs some modification.]]]
      You CANNOT and MUST NOT modify a blog once its written. The opinions posted out by others are based on your writings and if suddenly you change words then the person who wrote something to you –then you will make their post look invalid because we don’t know at what point in the future you will suddenly change the words.

      You can only add amendment notes in the reply columns.

      Pleas DON’T change ORIGINAL wordings to your posts because you could potentially change the entire discussion and notes made by some other persons.

      I really hope you can understand this and will not do so in the future.





      [[[You conveniently ignored one highlighted line from post 'Translation part given in this book is good and mostly comparable with all other translations of Gita']]]]

      I didn’t ignore it. Where you have understood the intentions of the book then I don’t need to say you have understood. Im not reviewing your blog. My reply to you is about where you have misunderstood the book.



      [[[His book is very good to read the translation of Gita (not its interpretation).]]]
      We already know that you like Gita translation but not the interpretations. The entire blog is about his purport and my reply to you is in defence of the purport.

      But after all my efforts you have totally dismissed them UNLESS you are yet stil to give me reply later.


      [[it has nothing to do whether I want to make his book look good or bad as I am not the judge, its up to readers to decide.]]]

      Im sorry but you are clearly judging the purports and you are clearly saying bad things about the purports. You now suddenly deny it here. And when your readers correct your opinions you ignore them or cannot accept their views. You seem to believe ONLY YOUR views and YOUR views alone is the RIGHT ONE!!


      So why do you waste our time asking for our opinions if you don’t accept the other side of your view point.


      Kiran
      3~'

      Delete
    3. Thanks again for your kind words, I really appreciate efforts you are taking in criticizing my blog. I am sure it will make comments section of blog more attractive to read than the post itself. My mind is not focused on only these lines, but also one these lines. I still read the book and refer to it whenever needed. Its still with me and will be with me in future also.

      [perhaps you may not be learned but when someone explains your wrong understanding you are not prepared to take their opinions on board. All you seem to do is “I am right” and make more arguments]
      wow...amazing...I am up for great treat today it seems, I hope I don't get overwhelmed by this praise. I never said that 'I am right' and also never said that 'you are wrong'..same thing I can say about your attitude but I won't. You seem to believe that if someone says that I am wrong then immediately I should agree to him/her and accept their opinion without explaining my side to them...great man..I don't except me, you or anyone to do that.

      If I change anything substantially which might affect the overall meaning or content of that post, I will surely explain it in that post itself. I can not make look anyone's comment look invalid by changing contents of my post, its wrong and if I do, I need to explain it. I find some typos or as I said some rearrangement or some title modification necessary to make the post more relevant or clear and I do that. I can not change the original meaning of my post, its wrong, if I have to then I will simply write another post. The changes you are talking about were done before any comment was posted on blog, but your concerns are legitimate and let me know if you see me doing this anytime in future.

      [I didn’t ignore it. Where you have understood the intentions of the book then I don’t need to say you have understood. Im not reviewing your blog. My reply to you is about where you have misunderstood the book.]

      thanks a lot man... don't you think I am doing the same thing and you criticized me for writing the negative and bad things about the book. I clearly mentioned that this post is about what I think are objectionable parts of book and you are continuously blaming me for being negative, anti Prabhupad and what not. I approached the same method to write the post. It was ONLY about some parts of the book which 'I' found objectionable and wanted to know what other people (my blog readers) think about it.

      I 'dismissed' what? I didn't dismiss any of your points, I just put defense to my points in a same way you are putting your side to defend those purports. Finally you got it, that entire blog is about few purports from the book, not entire book or not about Bhagavad Gita or not about Prabhupad or criticizing him...thanks man I didn't know that it was that difficult to understand.

      I am not judging the purports, I am trying to analyze them and sharing with readers what I understand from them. Who am I to judge them, its upto individual who will read the book to decide what he/she feels about them. Yes I do believe in my views (don't you? don't we all? otherwise why we will express them?), but I don't believe that they are the ONLY right ones, I think you miss some of line which I write unless you like to remember only certain things which suites your line of argument. I do believe that there can be MORE THAN ONE ways to achieve the same goal, more than one right answers to same question, I said this before, I am saying this again. I hope this NOW makes CLEAR that I don't believe that my views are the ONLY right one. But you do seem to believe that Prabhupad's views and opinions are only right and all others are wrong (correct me if I am wrong).

      contd.

      Delete
    4. contd.

      If you think you think you are wasting your time by giving your opinion then just don't give them, I didn't force you to express your opinion. You have right not to waste your time. But you don't have right to tell me what I should do or not do (or ask or not ask on my blog). My asking for opinion from my readers is invitation to them, not a COMMAND, they (and you also) are free to give it or not, it's their choice.

      I don't expect my readers to accept or agree with everything what I write on my blog. They are free to agree, disagree or criticize with my views. I don't feel I am wasting my time, it's my choice to write blog, its my right to express my opinion. So please try to respect others right to express their opinion at least when others are respecting your rights and opinions. I think we can show this much minimum courtesy towards each other.

      Delete
  11. Namaste,

    14]
    At number 12 on the part where I wrote about the below explanation, it needed explaining a bit more.
    [[[On the failure of such varnasrama-dharma, naturally the women become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery is indulged in at the risk of unwanted population.]]]

    So here it is.

    What hes saying is that without proper sanskar and rules and regulation the population in general will do what they like and society will fail. If Law did not exist today then criminal behaviour will increase even amongst the good people due to TEMPATIONS. Temptation is demon within all of us.
    Children will take to drinking spirit if Laws did not preventing them till certain age. Illicit Sex will take place if they were not taught the morals of society and if Law did not enforce it till certain age.
    Cigarettes and drugs will exist to anyone and everyone at any age.
    Temptation to steal, kill and so many other immoral of society.
    Infact these immoral thigns take place even with Law and Dharma but at least with Law and Dharma then it stops the generality of public.

    In the past Dharma was the one major factor to stop crime and bring decency amongst communities and families. Law was there but Dharma appears to take precedence over it.
    Even today Law is here but Dharma of mother and father in family and our own respective religions is a great deterrent to stop us from performing bad actions.

    Dharam for those who follow it will make them better persons. This was the most powerful way of ensuring good behaviours amongst society and family in the ancient days.

    Moral behaviour comes via all forms of sources. Here we are only focused on moral behaviour via Dharma.


    Now Prahphupada does not just stick to women.
    Prahphupada says
    [[[ Irresponsible men also provoke adultery in society, and thus unwanted children flood the human race at the risk of war and pestilence.]]]


    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Very good reply Kiran, First of all let me say that I dont believe in Varnashrama but whatever you wrote about society, law, temptations, etc. is very correct and relevant. I totally agree with most of the points mentioned here, very good explanation. I also think in similar way.

      But I dont agree when women's character and intellect is questioned for no reason, without any proof and for no fault of theirs. I raised objection to that not to these lines, but thanks for sharing them.

      Yes irresponsible men or women can provoke adultery, but does that mean all men and women are irresponsible. The lines which I mentioned in my post don't talk about 'irresponsible women' it clearly says,

      [women are similarly very prone to degradation]
      [According to Chanakya Pandiita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy]

      Did I miss 'irresponsible' word here, because I don't see it. I am sure scholar like Prabhupad can't do such mistake. So, I have objection when anyone (not only Prabhupad) generalizes behavior of entire race based on few bad examples. In case of men he correctly used the word 'irresponsible' but in case of women he din't...did he think that all women are irresponsible? I hope you request publishers of that book to include that word (if it's a printing mistake or something), so that it will clear all misunderstanding and post like this won't be necessary.

      Delete
  12. [[I am not judging the purports, I am trying to analyze them and sharing with readers what I understand from them.]]
    So have you understood?
    Don’t keep rambling about other thigns I write.
    Just stick to the point. Do you understand the mistakes in your interpretations after my explaining it to you?
    That’s more important to know then all this round about irrelevant talk.



    [[there can be MORE THAN ONE ways to achieve the same goal,]]
    You are missing the point.
    You are critising the purport of an intellect Guru and you are in no position to do that especially when you don’t have that intellect or ‘qualification’ to do so.

    A 5 year old child does not have the same intellect of his teacher. It is therefore wrong for a 5 year old to make arguments that one plus one equals five. Because of the childs lower intellect he thinks he is right and cant see the wrong.
    This is the argument you are making to me.

    You still don’t understand anything do you.




    [[If you think you think you are wasting your time by giving your opinion then just don't give them,]]

    That’s right. I don’t give any opinions on blogs that are not badly wrong.
    But when the bloggin you put out is so full of misinterpretations and when others read it and begin to think in this wrong way then it is the duty of everyone who comes onto this blog to correct you and stop future children from getting wrongful information.

    I therefore added my comments knowing how bad your writing was-- in the hope you will understand. But it seems you are just not focused on understand and making comments about everything but the sloks I have interpreted.


    Anyway this conversation is well overdue.
    I know my writings have been very harsh and apologise. I think my anger has got the better of me for some strange reason. But I hope you’ll correct your wrongful understanding.

    Kiran
    3~'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am not 'rambling' about 'other things' you write, you wrote your views I wrote mine...did I say you are 'rambling' about my post....I always stuck to the point and replied to all your comments point by point, very clearly, read it my boy...put some effort..and then say who is 'rambling'...

      Did you understand your mistake after my explanation? And don't worry even if you haven't, I am sure you will learn sooner or later and for me this is not irrelevant talk otherwise I may not have even replied to it, you decide how relevant it is to you.

      What point did I miss? I replied to all your points and even wrote what I think about verses you wrote in your comment. Take some effort my friend, read my replies in detail, try to understand them (don't worry you can do it), and then if you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.

      [You are critising the purport of an intellect Guru]

      So? Is it crime? Is it written in anywhere that whatever so called intellects write can not be criticized? Let me know if its like that, and for me Prabhupad is not 'intellect Guru' he is just a Sanskrit scholar for me and I am not discussion about his Sanskrit knowledge here, got it? Read till you understand my friend, take your time and then comment...

      I felt very privileged when you compared my intellect with children, thanks. I love their innocence and ability to adapt, I love their zeal to learn and creativity. Thanks that you though me worthy of comparing with them, I am overwhelmed.

      I didn't know that intellect depends on age...I don't think like that, may be you do. To me its not wrong if 5 year old argues with his teacher, its students right to do that and its a part of learning process, that's how they learn by asking questions. I know its not allowed in ISKON, so dont worry I can understand that. And I am not saying 1+1=5, I am saying 2+3=5 but you are insisting that I am saying something else, so wake up and read the things as they are.

      My friend, I understand everything what you are saying, the question here is did you understand anything which I said?

      [[But when the bloggin you put out is so full of misinterpretations and when others read it and begin to think in this wrong way then it is the duty of everyone who comes onto this blog to correct you and stop future children from getting wrongful information.]]

      Yes my dear friend, with same intention I wrote this post, so that people who read this book don't get misguided by these 'purports' by so called 'intellect Guru'. I absolutely don't have any problems with your sense of duty, but you seem to have problem with mine. Did I stop you from doing your job? They who are you to stop me from doing mine?

      If children can survive the dose they are getting about hatred about non believers, meat eaters, non ISKON followers (who don't consider Krishna as Godhead), then this blog is piece of cake for them (nothing compared to the lined which I mentioned in my post). Don't underestimate children, they have very sharp mind.

      Are you commenting about my writing (style, grammar, etc.) or the contents? As I said to you already and I repeat again as it seems you don't remember what I write in my reply, any suggestion to improve my writing is welcome but the contents I decide, thanks for your help but I don't need it.

      Don't worry about harshness or anything, I expected all these comments, and as I said you didn't disappoint me (but I was little surprised when you kept on repeating the same questions again and again even after I replied them in detail).

      contd.

      Delete
    2. contd.


      Anger very often blurs the vision and person misses many things because of that. So get over the anger and read my replies again may be they will make sense to you. And yes, I will correct my misunderstandings if there are any, don't worry about it. I hope you feel better and get over your anger

      Do you know my qualifications? Did I ask or commented about your qualifications? Did I question your intellect? So my dear friend please stay within your limits when you are talking with others, only uncivilized person can use this type of language but I am not one of them. And don't worry I will correct my wrongful understandings but only if they are wrong...hope I answered all your concerns and doubts.

      Delete
    3. I don't see your previous comment (posted at 5.49 PM on 30th April) on blog which you posted before this, so can not post the reply here. Please post it again so that readers can read it and I can reply. If its too much work for you then I have it in my email and will post it with my reply very soon, I think it's OK with you. Thanks

      Delete
  13. I have to jump in... On what basis is prabhupad a scholar? On what basis is vinay not? Just because you say it? Haha, I doubt even your children will agree with you after few years because all I see in you is a blind follower. I have seen many in my life and you are no different. I understand you were troubled by world and you started feeling better after meeting iscon group (which is pretty much case with most iscon people). But fault must be yours too that you did not put efforts in understanding world. I understand it's time you need to prove yourself and show others that you are more right than others. But truth is thinking like this itself makes you smaller. the only way you can become scholar is by accepting others scholary, but I doubt prabhupad ever knew this, so not their followers. I pity people like you and specially children of people like you because they will have to follow some religion by force since childhood and they will miss out on so many beautiful things around. I see many iscon people wasting their day and night trying to propogate their religion while we atheist enjoy so many different things in world for which god might have sent us in this world. Anyways, we need such fools to keep our balls rolling, so please continue being one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Vishnu....please think over whatever i m going to say.....
      Everybody in this world, is trying to enjoy....but the point is to what extent & is everybody enjoying really????
      you had not decided the nation, country, city & family while taking birth.....you had been forced to take birth, in particular family..... & hence you have got ample of opportunities to grow in ur life...economically,socially,financially etc.....
      While on the other hand......there r some people who have taken birth in some African countries where they r striving to have a grain to fill up their belly.....or have taken birth in the areas like taliban, pakistan where there is always anxiety in keeping one's own life safe.....
      So....the point is.....don't say---"we enjoy"....whereas say---"we are given the opportunities to enjoy".....
      We are not the decision maker while taking birth....plz ask this question to urself.....Why u have not taken birth in some poor family,nation...????
      In the mood of enjoyment....it is really difficult to think over the miseries of life....& hence often in the sense of pride....we refuse the acceptance of the god....
      now, the point is what r the miseries of life.....is it---a birth in poor family or being jobless, not having loving relationships, or what????
      the definition of misery is---that which nobody wants but is forced to accept it....& these are--Birth,Old age, disease & death....
      & the real enjoyment starts when we stop these miseries......The Bhagavadgita As It Is---written by Srila Prabhupada is a perfect guidance to the humanity to escape these miseries & to enjoy the never ending life of enjoyment & bliss with the supreme lord krishna....
      these things might appear for u very new.....since u haven't gone through this book....so before commenting on Prabhupada & boldly confessing as an atheist.....plz read this book once....
      now the point is----why prabhupada is accepted as scholar????.....because he has given the purports which makes us easily understand the purpose of human life.....& explains how to achieve this perfection.....
      Its very easy to comment on someone.....but have u tried to follow his instructions.....
      Lets take an analogy....u have fallen sick & u have gone to doctor.....& after examining u,,,,,,doctor prescribed u some medicines to regain the health.......but instead of taking medicines, if u argue with the doctor regarding the authenticity of medicines....u can argue up to certain limit but at the end u have to try the medicines to gain ur health back.....
      similarly....if u really want to comment on prabhupada....first try to understand his writings, follow it.....I m quite sure that u will realize so many amazing things of the precious human life......
      Read it once....if u have any doubts, ask them on http://www.thespiritualscientist.com/ ....
      The Society ISKCON founded by Srila Prabhupada, is trying to spread the medicine for getting out of the real miseries of life---birth, old age, disease & death.....to enjoy the blissful & ever enjoying life with the supreme lord krishna with whom we have our eternal relationship.
      All ur questions will get answered just read--Bhagavadgita As It Is---written by srila prabhupada.....
      Now....regarding children....u decide who are the real parents????
      1. One who allows his child to enjoy the life (that too the opportunity to enjoy is given) , forgetting the real miseries of life.
      2. or the one who makes his child understand the real miseries of life & teaches him to get out of it & enjoy the never ending blissful life with the supreme lord krishna.....
      Decision is yours....
      Thanks....hope u make an effort to get rid of real miseries......

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  14. Anger .... just One letter from Danger. Each to his/her own interpretations and Ways of Living. Forcing something down one's throat has been a major part of Propagation of any religion!
    Look at the conversions in the last 2000 years.Before 2000 odd years there were no Christians or Muslims as there was no 'Christ' or 'Prophet Mohammed'...Then was there no religions or God? Humanity progresses as per given circumstances and happenings...

    History - HIS STORY !! Story as told by the writer in HIS/HER opinion ... It could be biased, couldn't it or convenient,,couldn't it?

    I always let the past be an informative guide, Live with the Present and do not 'worry' too much about the Future.Sitting in judgement of Good/Bad, Right/Wrong consumes a lot of time and energy in Argument..I'd rather use mine for making the best of the present..

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    1. You are right uncle...I wrote many times in my comments that every author writes to convey his/her story or opinion. I look at the past as informative guide and try to learn my lessons from it. All we have with us is present and we should try to make best out of it. Very meaningful comment thanks for sharing it.

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  15. Namaste Vinay,

    [[[So? Is it crime? Is it written in anywhere that whatever so called intellects write can not be criticized?]]
    Its called common sense.


    [[Prabhupad is …..a Sanskrit scholar ]]]
    That’s another reason to respect his intellect.


    [[I didn't know that intellect depends on age.]]
    I was comparing the difference in intellect between him and you. That’s the point to this example.


    [[My friend, I understand everything what you are saying, the question here is did you understand anything which I said?]]
    I completely understand your viewpoint and stance. But what you don’t seem to realise is that its all wrong on this occasion.


    [[Are you commenting about my writing (style, grammar, etc.) or the contents?]]
    I am talking about your interpretations and your failure to understand why I say you are wrong.



    [[[(but I was little surprised when you kept on repeating the same questions again and again even after I replied them in detail).]]
    Because you repeatedly never understood.



    [[Anger very often blurs the vision]]
    Yes true. Now let me explain what I mean by my anger.
    My view point was correct but the way I had presented it to you on occasions was not.
    But this has nothing to do with my trying to explain your misinterpretations.


    [[Do you know my qualifications?]]
    Yes. You have told us it enough times.
    Also it shows up on certain blogs.


    [[Did I ask or commented about your qualifications? Did I question your intellect?]]
    When I say you are not qualified it means you are not an expert on the subject –that’s all. So don’t feel offended. Its wants anything personal.



    Anyway as I said this talk is exhausted and we are going in circles.
    Until the next blog


    3~'

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    1. Namastey Kiran,
      Calling Wrong as Wrong and questioning whenever one has doubts, no matter whose hypothesis it is (so called intellectual or commoner) is common sense. Believing everything said/written by so called intellectuals is called 'BLIND following' not 'Common sense'.

      My dear friend I am not questioning Prabhupad's Sanskrit knowledge here, please read carefully. I am questioning his interpretation of those verses not the translation, again...common sense should help to understand this.

      Yes, there is difference between his intellect and mine, I know that very well and I am glad you can see that, how he missed simple points which I already clarified in my reply to your comment where you discussed the related verse. You conveniently ignored that reply, and some one was talking about 'rambling' about 'other things'...don't worry as I said I expected these things, I am not surprised.

      I am glad to know that you 'completely' understand my viewpoint, it's your opinion that its wrong, not mine. Forcing something down one's throat doesn't make things right or wrong, you have your opinion and I have mine, it's as simple as that (different people, different opinions).

      Just saying 'you are wrong' is not enough, one should prove it...I already replied to your comment about that verse (whose purport I have used in my post) and explained my side. Take some effort and read it, then comment, again...I think again its a matter of common sense.

      Repeatedly saying same thing without any proof wont make it right, so get the facts, read my replies and then comment.

      Anger corrupts mind, so try to control it and please explain and prove my misinterpretations please don't vent your anger here.

      Please let me know the post where I discuss about my qualifications (search net, you can easily get it). And if it shows up in my blog then you should have clear idea who am I, why to talk about it gain and again?...we should stay within limits of conversational etiquettes...we are not here to judge each other, you can find better places to practice your this hobby (judging), this blog is not one of them.

      When you call a person without knowing him/her personally that 'you are not qualified', question their intelligence or rights to express their opinion...then its personal..but I am not offended by it (as I said I expected these things), I am just reminding you etiquettes of formal conversation. I think we are civilized enough to do that.

      Yes, we are going in circles, so please stick to the point and discuss about content of the blog, not my or your intellect or qualifications or my ability to question or analyze or my right to express my opinion or whether I should write the blog or not. Put your points, prove that I am wrong and proceed, it's simple.

      I already answered to your comments related with the verse and its purport yesterday, please read them and try to understand them. I know its hard for any 'blind follower' to accept criticism of his/her God or Guru (or whatever title you want to give to Prabhupad), but just give it a try, I know you can understand it.

      Stick to the point and talk about verses and its purport (or contents of my blog). It will avoid going into circles. As your time is valuable so is mine, this simple rule (sticking to points and avoiding personal remarks) will save both of us from wasting our valuable time.

      Once again thanks for your comments and suggestions.

      I modified this comment slightly compared to what I posted yesterday but over all its still same, just added some more lines/words to clarify some of my points.

      Delete
  16. Here is comment by Anonymous I was talking about which didn't get posted on blog, I am reproducing it as it is,

    Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Bhagadvad Gita-As it is or As it is NOT..":

    [[I really appreciate efforts you are taking in criticizing my blog.]]

    Its not criticism.
    I am merely writing what you have asked from all your readers.
    LOOK –you say

    [[If I am wrong please correct me, I am always willing to learn and correct my mistakes.]]
    [[If I am wrong please correct me, I am always willing to learn and correct my mistakes.]]

    So now you are feeling bad when we correct you and you call it criticism.

    If you are willing to learn then you would have understood what I have written so far was merely to explain how you have continually been posting wrong views and thinking and opinions.


    [[I never said that 'I am right' and also never said that 'you are wrong'..]]
    by not willing to understand simple facts you are in effect saying “I am GREAT and RIGHT”.


    [[[You seem to believe that if someone says that I am wrong then immediately I should agree to him/her and accept their opinion without explaining my side to them...great man..I don't except me, you or anyone to do that.]]]

    So now you are just dismissing our explanations. You have not even said wheter the explanations I gave made sense or not. All you do is pick and choose which words or sentence I have written and focus on that.
    The detailed explanations I gave you just dismiss.

    These are not criticism but only correcting your ways.
    Remember you say
    [[If I am wrong please correct me, I am always willing to learn and correct my mistakes.]]


    Now I dotn have anymore time on this topic which is exhausted I should say.





    [[The changes you are talking about were done before any comment was posted on blog, but your concerns are legitimate and let me know if you see me doing this anytime in future.]]

    Wow you actually agree I am right.

    I had already stated writing my reply to your post by copying and pasting your post to my word doc (as it was more convenient to do so).
    Then as I came to post my reply I suddenly found changes.
    So you see the fact that I had not posted the reply makes no difference because I had already started my reply.

    Anyway I hope you wont do that in the future.





    [[[[don't you think I am doing the same thing and you criticized me for writing the negative and bad things about the book. I clearly mentioned that this post is about what I think are objectionable parts of book and you are continuously blaming me for being negative, anti Prabhupad and what not. I approached the same method to write the post. It was ONLY about some parts of the book which 'I' found objectionable and wanted to know what other people (my blog readers) think about it.]]]

    No. You are not doing what I am doing. They are two separate things. You invited us to make comments on things we saw wrong in your post.
    Well lets hope you understand that much.



    [[defense to my points]]
    defence and dismissive is the same thing.




    [[Finally you got it, that entire blog is about few purports from the book, not entire book or not about Bhagavad Gita or not about Prabhupad or criticizing him...thanks man I didn't know that it was that difficult to understand.]]

    What are you talking about? I had already understood what your blog was about.
    Otherwise I would not have posted all the corrections.



    Posted by Anonymous to Self Realization at April 30, 2012 5:49 PM

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    1. and now my reply to it..:)

      I thanked you for your comments many times, is there anything wrong in that. I am totally fine with criticism I already explained my views about criticism, once again please read all my replies to your comments before mentioning same things again and again.
      I know what I asked from my readers and thank them for every comment and also for visiting my blog. I try my best to acknowledge each comment and also answers all questions and concerns of my readers. I think by now you understand this.

      I already said many many times, I don't mind criticism and if you are correcting me then at least show some proof or back your opinion with some logic, just shouting 'you are wrong and I am right' again and again won't help.

      I am willing to learn right things which are proposed to me with some logic or proof. I am always willing to listen to others point of view but that doesn't mean I will agree with all of them. As a science student I have learned to accept the facts if they are backed up with solid evidence or logic and I don't think you even tried to do that in your arguments.

      [[by not willing to understand simple facts you are in effect saying “I am GREAT and RIGHT”.]]

      What simple facts you are talking about? Is it 'You are all RIGHT and I am all WRONG?' It seems you love to have 'your own facts' and think that others should accept it without any complain. I don't think like that, I don't have my own facts, I go by simple logic. I think I already told you this.

      I am not dismissing your explanations, I am questioning them and putting my point of view. You may be right in your point of view when you believe Prabhupad's opinion that "Women are more prone to degradation" I don't have any problems with that but I don't agree with that so I believe I have right to question it and put my point of view which is different than his. I am simply doing that.

      Whenever you are accusing me (or anyone) for being wrong please provide some conclusive evidence or some rationale.

      Prove my mistake and I have no problem in correcting them. But please don't try to 'force' your beliefs and assumptions on others.

      Yes, I do agree wherever I see a valid point and I have done that at many places in comment section. I don't feel surprised that you noticed it for the first time as you don't read them properly before rushing next dose of your beliefs on blog.

      Let me know how the changes which I made (title change and including one sentence in the beginning) affected your reply. The content and intent of blog remained same, I wonder what was the change which affected your reply, I am curious. I already explained my stand about changes on blog in my reply to related comment, please read it.

      [No. You are not doing what I am doing. They are two separate things. You invited us to make comments on things we saw wrong in your post. Well lets hope you understand that much.]

      What are you talking about here? I explained the reason why you found the post pointing only negatives from the book. Yes, I invited readers to comment on blog, so? Whats your point here? You are expressing your opinion and I am mine, lets hope you understand that much.

      [defence and dismissive is the same thing.]

      Great thought man...keep going...both words start with 'D' that doesn't mean they have same meaning..:) check the dictionary...

      contd.

      Delete
    2. contd.

      [What are you talking about? I had already understood what your blog was about. Otherwise I would not have posted all the corrections]

      I am glad that you understood what the blog was about. There is difference between corrections and comments, don't be so over confident that whatever you say is correct and others should accept it without any consideration or analysis or protest. You posted your 'COMMENTS' which you think are 'corrections'. Comments and corrections are totally different things. I dont think I have to explain this to you. You can post your comments any time and they are always welcome, but if you want to correct something then please post them with some logic and evidence and I assure you that if they are true they will definitely be accepted.

      Thanks again.

      Delete
  17. Any one who is not a true theist cannot fully understand Bhagavad-gita "As it is". At least we have to try to understand it by being submissive and humble, not by presuming that we know everything. You may have "freedom" in one sense but you have no authority to express whatever you like, Vinay, although no one in this country can prevent you! What shall we gain by expressing "our" opinions if they are not authorised by God (who is the Absolute Authority). Material logical arguments, however brilliant and esoteric they may be, can never prove (come to a true conclusive understanding) anything about God, although the conclusive truth may always exist for eternity.

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    1. Thanks Mayur for your comments...what do you mean by 'true theist'??? can you please elaborate this little more. Submissive and humble?? do you mean not asking any question or expressing any doubts??

      [[What shall we gain by expressing "our" opinions if they are not authorised by God (who is the Absolute Authority)]]

      authorized by God?? can you show me a single text or opinion which carries any signature (or any other mark) which indicates that it is authorized by God. I know that there are many books which claim that they are authorized by God (and there are many)...so which ones you think are true...all of them or the some selected one which you think are true???

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  18. Everything straight from the horse's mouth, so to say:

    http://kuruvinda.com/hindsight.aspx#A36

    Lists almost every bizarre and objectionable idea and utterance of ACBS and offers links to a detailed analysis of his ademant misconceptions of the moon landings, his financial support of his family while being a sannyasi, and his misuse of the Manu Samhita to put women in their place.

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    1. Thanks a lot for sharing this link, it is really interesting read and I recommend people who are interested in knowing more about ISKON movement visit this link, not that I am endorsing views expressed by author there but I want readers to know both sides of coin before forming any opinions. I have very limited experience with ISKON but whatever I saw there and experienced I immediately realized that its not for me. Thanks again for sharing this on blog, I am sure many readers will find this interesting.

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    2. here is another link worth visiting,

      http://breaking-free.info/

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  19. Thanks Vinay for your comments. You are speaking my mind, because I have had exactly the same impression of Prabhupada's books and teachings he propagates. I also find them too biased and sectarian and in no way they represent the Gita as it is. However, I should note that I am not against Lord Krishna nor His true and sincere devotees, nor against Bhagavad Gita as it REALLY is as opposed to some narrow-minded cult pushing its own sectarian agenda which has little to do with real spirituality and despite their constant claim of "bringing people closer to God" in fact distancing people away from Him and ruining people's lives all over the world! I am not against the real religion of surrendering oneself to God, I am only against religious fanaticism and destructive teachings. I guess that if Lord Krishna came to this earth again, he would be embarrassed by many of these so-called "devotees". Many of the "karmis" who are sincere would be much closer to Him than many of these sectarian, fanatical and extremely narrow-minded cultists.

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    1. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts. I agree with you about sectarian and dictatorial nature of most of cult movements, they all try to scare people rather than educate them. Religious fanaticism is on the rise because more and more people are questioning their hypothesis and methodology. Most of them say that it's OK to ask questions but they don't like if the questioner starts questioning their basic principles. We need to confront fanaticism of any type wherever we see it and this blog is one small step in that direction. Thanks again for visiting the blog and keep on sharing your views.

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