Friday, November 9, 2012

When Yash called Krishna a thief and a murderer..

This is not a post about any particular subject but about one very funny incident happened in my home few days back. We talk regularly with my parents and other family members in Pune via gtalk or Skype, it's always fun to talk with them and kids enjoy very much interacting with their grandparents and cousins in Pune. These talks are mostly weekly affair and they are entertaining for me as well as kids and tend to get quite interesting sometimes for various reasons.

Few days back Parth, very adorable character, son of my brother recited one of my favorite bhajan (devotional song) 'Om jai jagadish hare' he did really good job and I was amazed that he remembered whole song and it sounded really cute because the way he sang it, still his pronunciation is not very clear for some words so it turned out to be very unique song which only Parth can sing. Yash joined to listen the song and then after the song was finished I started asking Parth some questions like do you know who is Jagdish? why you sing bhajans? Then we also discussed why one can not sing 'Munni badnam hui'  as a bhajan instead of  'Om jai jagdish'...and we also argued for some time over why my song (Munni) can not be a bhajan but his song can be, so it was fun and we both were enjoying our discussion. 

Yash was listening all this; I asked Parth, "Do you know who is this 'Jagdish' for whom you were singing this bhajan?" 
He looked at my mom because he didn't know the answer and finally said Jagdish means Krishna
Then I said "Why you are singing bhajan for Krishna, he was not such a nice guy" 
At that point Yash joined the conversation and then the interesting part of conversation began,
Yash, "Parth do you know Krishna used to steal food from people's homes and he also killed his own uncle and not only that after killing his own uncle (Kansa) he also incited Arjun to kill his relatives".....
I was surprised by this comment from Yash, my mom was shocked and parth was taken aback by what Yash said...but it was interesting, I didn't say anything, I allowed him to continue with his statement as I was curious to know how he justifies his statement. 
My mom to Yash "No Yash, he was not thief or murderer, he was God"
Yash, "Then why he used to steal food from people's house, don't we call such people thief?"
Mom, "No, he was not thief, he was just a little naughty boy, and those people used to have plenty of food and didn't mind Krishna taking some from their house"
Yash, "We also have plenty of sweets in our shop then will it be OK if some little naughty boy comes and steal them from our shop?"
Mom,"But he never used to eat alone, he used to share with his friends."
Yash, "What if that boy also shares sweets stolen from our shop with his friends, will that be OK"
Now my mom started loosing her patience, she used her final weapon which every religious person uses whenever they run out of options, "Krishna was God and because he was God he can do anything he wants we won't be able to understand it because we are humans"
Yash did pretty good job in justifying his statement and because of this I was smiling during this conversation, and finally my mom said, "Yash, you are becoming like your father, normally son picks up qualities from  his father"
Yash, "No, that's not true, Krishna didn't become like his father, even dad (me) is not like grandpa both are in different profession, so it's not necessary that every son will become like his father and I am also not like that" 
During all this discussion Parth got really confused and finally said that he will think about Krishna as some things about him sound little strange (stealing and killing) and then we changed the subject.

The discussion was interesting, later I and Yash discussed why he thought like this about Krishna and how there are many other angles to his personality in Mahabharat which one should look into and learn from his character. Krishna is one of my favorite characters from Mahabharat and I am truly fascinated by his character and role he played in that epic, I already wrote couple of posts about him on my blog few months back.

According to me the discussion was not at all insulting towards Krishna or that bhajan (which some people might feel that it was and I totally understand their view), it was just a different perspective, one can look at any incident with many angles and each angle  or approach can provide a unique view. Yash choose to look at Krishna's character and its actions in his own way and derived his conclusions, he had his own reasons to do that, we all choose our own ways to look at many situations we face in our lives and based on our approach we form our opinions and beliefs, for me this was simple example of how two people can look at the same incident or person in totally different way and both feel that they are right about their opinion about that person or situation, there is nothing strange in it we all do that without even realizing it....

Thanks for reading and please share your views on this topic. 

(Copyright: Vinay Thakur. Please contact the author for re-posting or publishing)

References:
1. http://selfrealization-vinay.blogspot.com/2012/04/krishna-man-or-god-part-i.html
2. http://selfrealization-vinay.blogspot.com/2012/04/krishna-part-ii.html

35 comments:

  1. Did you explain to Yash the reason for Krishnas actions?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Yes, I did and we discussed quite a bit about some incidents in Mahabharat involving Krishna...I guess now he thinks that there are many things one can learn from Krishna's character from Mahabharat but still he can't understand why he has to steal the food from people's home...he and my daughter are also confused that why Krishna's parents produced 6 babies that too in prison when they knew that Kansa is going to kill them...why there was aakashwani to warn Kansa if Krishna wanted to kill him...etc...so the discussion continues and I will write another post if anything more interesting comes out of those discussions...thanks for your comment.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Are they now satisfied with your explanations of the below points they raised because its so important that they understand all these points now. eg

    ‘but still he can't understand why he has to steal the food from people's home...’

    ‘my daughter are also confused that why Krishna's parents produced 6 babies that too in prison when they knew that Kansa is going to kill them..’

    ‘why there was aakashwani to warn Kansa if Krishna wanted to kill him..’

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No..in fact I don't have proper explanation for some of these things...for me it makes perfect sense not to have kids if they know they are going to get killed...

      Why he stole food is easy to understand..it was just a child prank..many kids do that...that act was just glorified by vaishnavas because it was done by Krishna...kids still feel that it's wrong to steal the things which is good but they understand this was just a prank...

      that aakashwani also doesn't make any sense but adds much needed suspense and drama in the story so may be that's why its there...any way these things don't matter much as there are many things like this which one can question but story of Mahabharat is still interesting and a learning experience for people of all ages...

      Delete
  4. I will write out for you an explanation which I hope you will convey on my behalf to the children in your house.

    Firstly children have to understand who God is.
    Krishna is the Ultimate Reality which He Himself explains of in the Bhagavad-Gita. If children have seen Mahabharata then they will have seen the Virat Roop of Krishna.
    Krishna is everything and Everything belongs to Him.

    So when we say he steals some thing, then we have to think again.
    How can God steal something that already belongs to Him.

    Please show him this video. Its only three minutes long.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqDaeMhiryM

    Now we have to know who the Gopis were. Many gods and sages took birth in the village of Vrindaban because they knew that God would enact His Leela and they wanted to partake of it and be blessed.
    In His previous incarnation as Lord Rama He was admired and desired by many sages and women who wanted to marry Him. But Lord Rama said He had taken a vow of one wife. But what about our desires they would cry. Lord Rama promised them that in His next birth He would fulfil all their desires.

    So in the incarnation as Lord Krishna, many souls descended from the spiritual world in to the village as gopis and others.

    Shree Krishna by taking their food, was fulfilling their wish to be feeding God, to be a mother, to be friends, to be lovers, to simply see etc etc. Gopis were very special devoted souls who worshipped Krishna with much love. They wanted to play with God so they teased Him in His little form. All this is difficult for us to comprehend until we too have such desire to see meet and love God.

    Perhaps the closest example we can tell children is, how they would feel if they were to meet their favourite Hero from TV or Actor like Amitabh or others. How much joy would be felt in their hearts? Until such a desire exist in their hearts for someone or God then they may not be able to appreciate the ‘ecstasy’ of falling in love with God.

    Most of the time due to the Leela of Krishna and to fulfil their desires they forgot who Krishna was. It would be very difficult to accuse God of stealing butter for example but due to leela it was easy for them to do. God is great and many people find it difficult to understand. So how much more difficult for children to understand.
    One minute He would save them from a giant snake, the next minute He would lift a mountain. But each time the villagers seem to forget these incidents. This was Krishnas Leela.

    People often try to explain that Krishna was just a naughty little kid and he was only a child or as you have said he only did it in friends and families house. We forget Krishna is God. He didn’t perform His actions without a good reason.

    The butter was being taken to Mathura for free by Kans. One of the reasons why He took birth was to stop the suffering of people who had begged Him to take birth for their protection. He would eat and break these pots and started a campaign of resistance to Kans. He would also free calves so that they would drink milk of their mother cow and not go to evil Kans. Off course later evil Kans became angry when little food and milk was coming from this village but Krishna too care of all that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks a lot again for your elaborate reply and time, I really appreciate it and I am sure my kids will also do the same, they already read it and will see how they react to it. I don't find anything new in this this what they told us in all ISKON gatherings and from there itself my kids became so doubtful that it's almost impossible to convince them above even good actions of Krishna...this all Krishna leela and his passtimes is bombarded endlessly at ISKON and related Vaishnav sects, nothing new in this comment but thanks for all your efforts.

      And there are many other books apart from Mahabharat, Bhagavatam, Ramayan like Bible and Qu'ran, etc. which have their own description of God and its attributes..kids read them and they dont find any common factor..this all looks man made effort to sell their product, ISKON has their, Islam theirs, Christianity and so on...

      Whatever you explained they already know, once you shut off the logid and stop questioning you can accept anything, almost anything be it Bible or Qu'ran or Bhagvatam, no problem..but I go by analysis and logic for me all these books have many many good things which I can learn and at the same time they have many things which are outdated and irrelevant so I don't care or rather criticize them if I see people still defending hose things...very simple..

      My kids have to learn their way of thinking my job is not to teach them what to think but to teach how to think, they will find their own path I am just a guide if they need. The stories in all these books are nice but its little too far stretch for me to take them literally (like Jesus turning water into wine, or Krishna lifting mountain etc.) there are many stories like this, which mean something but people insist that they are historical events and just accept them as history and bow to that deity...

      You say Krishna is supreme god and everything belong to him, Bible says there is some other God and everything is his, Qu'ran says there is someone else, Buddha says there is not God and so on...its not that simple as you think...I dont follow any particular line, you choose yours thats why you are fine with whatever that book says (and so are others which chose their book and their God) for me everything is mine, so I accept whatever I like from every book and question whatever I find objectionable..and I think kids are doing the same...

      and you are right once you accept someone as God you can justify all his/her actions, there is no doubt about it I have seen that with my own eyes I dont need any proof for this, I know very well what you are saying here. I am not that type of person and it's up to kids to decide what path they want to choose..if they like your explanation they will follow that or they will keep their search on until they find their path...:)

      Delete
  5. People have given other interpretations as well but this can be read when a child grows up has a deeper understanding.
    Krishna takes the offering given to him with love. In His incarnation of Lord Rama he took the has tasted fruits of his devotee Sabri. As Krishna he took the food offered by Sudama from his dirty napkin and food of poor quality. He took banana peel from the wife of Vidhur who was so engrossed in devotion to Him that she three away the fruit and offered Krishna the peels. One grain of rice was offered to Krishna by Pandav wife and He was fulfilled. Such is the kindness of Krishna. I am overcome with emotions and tears roll down my cheeks at thinking about such love of Krishna. My tears are of joy and ecstasy at Krishnas love for his devotee.
    So when Krishna took the butter of Gopis they were most blessed because this is the Nature of God.

    Even those who are killed by Him; they are free from cycle of birth and death and are truly blessed. Even at the time of death when one remembers the name of God then they are truly blessed.

    Krishna also explains in the Mahabharata that the soul is the real nature of man and women. The soul cannot be killed or made wet or dry or cut. Just like we wear a shirt, the body is simply a temporary ‘shirt’. So when Krishna Kills Kans He hasn’t killed anyone. The soul is our True Nature and it cannot be killed.
    The soul is immortal. Only the body dies.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZqo9CSfjMY

    Krishna took birth to kill Kans, to help Arjuna, to fulfil the wishes of the Gopis, to give mankind the Bhagavad Gita and other reasons. The series of events that take place such as ‘aakshavani’ had to take place as part of His master plan to fulfil all the devotees wishes. Even Kans was part of a bigger plan which the children will know about when they read the Bhagvatam when they are older.

    A master plan has o take shape in a certain order certain way. We can perhaps explain to the children that when a Marathon is run by thousands of runners the story does not start at the ‘starting line’. It begins with the individual training and applying and becoming fit for the day. Some people are picked to run whilst others are not. The organisation behind the scene such as stopping traffic, water points, TV crew, finish lines, Ambulance service, informing people of road closures, planning etc etc takes effect before the race. WE cant just tell the runners to take the Train to the finish line! Just as they might ask why didnt God just kill Kans with his powers.
    The leela of organising and planning and running has to take effect. Otherwise we could be reading headlines like “All the runners were comfortably seated in a trains cars and busses and all made the 30 mile run in 30 minutes.”

    Off course children have endless questions and there are endless answers but for now I hope these will be enough to convince your children to have faith in God once more. I hope it has helped you also to understand.

    If people reading this have not been satisfied then they will argue many many questions and without their proper understanding and right frame of mind its difficult to teach anyone who don’t want to understand. Its probably impossible to teach anyone who puts up a wall of negative outlook.
    I hope he likes it and when he grows up will be able to explain to others through his own reading of religious books.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks again, I really appreciate all this explanation, but as I said we already heard it at ISKON and other gathering, this is all they hammer and this is the answer to every question you ask that these all are God's leela or pass times and you wont understand it unless you accept that he is all superior and powerful and can do whatever he want...yea true, if you assume that about anyone then there is no scope for argument or discussion.

      "The soul cannot be killed or made wet or dry or cut." and then you say, "So when Krishna Kills Kans He hasn't killed anyone"
      if this is right and true then how come if Kansa kills some one or any other person kills anyone then he/she is not liberating the soul but is branded as a criminal and devil? as I said once you assume that 'X' is a god then whatever that character does is justifiable..

      This all krishna's pass time, leela stuff is known to kids, stories of Gopis, etc. etc. and thats what triggered these questions...you did a great job in reproducing them here, and really thanks a lot for this.

      Delete
  6. I was reading it through and I didn’t seem to explain that Krishna did not murder. Murder is when you kill someone out of some wrong reason. A soldier kills but it is not murder.
    Kans was killed in a fight which Kans knew about through the ‘aakash vaani’.
    Kans knew that he would have to die but still did nothing to change himself. He killed many of the babies which shows the evilness of Kans and so how can we feel sorry Kans. He committed many other atrocities and for this reason he had to die.
    I hope your child understands better now.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I also have few questions after reading this comment, if Kans knew he is going to get killed then why would he change as according to you he knew no matter what he is going to get killed any way...

    If some one tells some person that some 'X' person is going to kill him/her no matter what, then what will be that person's approach, to save that person? worship or try to kill 'X' to save his/her life? and if Krishna wanted to kill Kans why to tell him in advance and jeopardize his parents and those six kids lives? and if after aakashwani when Devki and Vasudev knew that they were helpless and Kans is going to kill their kids why they gave birth to them? not one but six kids? just to see them get killed? does these things make any sense?

    Kids will find their way through these questions I am not worried for them, I like them to see all sides of any issue and choose what they think is best according to them (after debates and discussion), they read your comment and thank you for your effort..

    ReplyDelete

  8. I didn’t understand your reply when you say
    “I don't find anything new in this this what they told us in all ISKON gatherings and from there itself my kids became so doubtful that it's almost impossible to convince them above even good actions of Krishna...this all Krishna leela and his passtimes is bombarded endlessly at ISKON and related Vaishnav sects, nothing new in this comment but thanks for all your efforts.”

    ISCKON explained it to you and your children became more doubtful? Perhaps you have been teaching them wrong way and so their minds have become very confused.

    I gave you a simple answer to the dilemma you’re children were in and now you tell me they already know all this? and still don’t like the explanation. Im not sure what you re saying here.

    I think you are very confused and also confusing the children with your atheistic views. You are entitled to your views but in your attempt to teach them to accept all religions you have confused them.

    This blog was not about other religions or their beliefs.

    This blog is about the character of story of Krishna which they didn’t understand.
    Even if you and your children consider this to be a fairy tale then even in the fairytale the explanation I have given you stands true. Therefore they must accept the explanation as good answers that Krishna does not steal or kill.
    This they must accept otherwise they are simply being rebellious for no reason.
    Simply to hate or dislike or disagree or reject for the sake of it is really an injustice on all your parts.

    For example in the fairytale of the Snowhite, the fairest is Snow-white. It’s a fairytale and we have to accept that this is what the author wrote and indeed Snowwhite is the fairest of them all.
    The characters of the Dwarfs were Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Dopey, Sneezy, Bashful and not anything else. We have to accept what is written.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I totally agree with your comment and understand that if you are listening to fairy tale then it's not right to ask questions like how snake can talk or how fairy can fly, etc..I agree and as you said I told them all these stories like that and they were totally fine with it, got the lessons loved the drama and action...but then in those gatherings (few ISKON one) they started saying Krishna was real, he is super godhead, all other Gods are demigods, etc. etc..I think you know very well what I mean...and then the questioning starts..did he kill so many people in real? is it OK to steal the things as kid and so on...

      I don't categorize my self as theist or atheist and how come you say my views are atheistic views?? just because they are not same as yours??

      I dont force my views on my kids or anyone, they have their own opinion on many things which are different than mine and I am OK with it, they read your post but were not convinced..how can I say that they must accept this or that..there is huge difference between disagree and dislike..I dont dislike your opinion but I may not agree with it, same with kids, they don't agree on particular issue that doesn't mean they are rebellious..

      Delete
    2. “Krishna was real, he is super godhead, all other Gods are demigods, etc. etc..”

      Yes this is their belief and way of life. You have to explain to the children that this is what they believe and we must not judge them or ask them such questions that makes them feel that we don’t like their beliefs.

      There are people who see Krishna as real walking talking Supreme Personality of Godhead and I don’t see why we have a problem with that.
      You will now ask I don’t have a problem.
      But you do have a problem because you are questioning their beliefs.
      In your questioning it sounds like you are saying they are wrong.
      This is the impression you are giving in your writing.
      You don’t like the answers given to you so argue with them.

      Questioning is good. But then to say “I don’t like your answer” -- is silly. What else are they supposed to tell your children then?
      Are they supposed to say “Krishna is indeed a thief and a murderer”?
      Are they looking for an answer that please them and you?

      So you have to teach your children that the answer they have been given is correct from their perspective because they have read the answers from the books that is written about Krishna so they cannot give any other answers.

      If they still go away and say I don’t like their answers and I still Krishna is a murderer is to be ignorant. We have to remove their ignorance by giving them examples. For examples –Snowhite meets 7 Dwarfs. We cant say “She should have met 9 Dwarfs”.

      So when ISCKON tells you their answer then it is correct and we have to accept.

      It’s a different matter that we DON’T follow their ways.
      That is alright.
      No one is forcing them to do so.

      Similarly when we go to a church and the Chritians say Chrsit turned wine into water then we have to accept this as truth.
      It is written in their book so they cant tell that “Infact he turned water in to Orange Juice”. This would be silly.
      You have to explain it like this to your children.
      By accepting their answer does not mean you will suddenly become aChristian or a Muslim or a Hindu.
      These people tell you the story from their perspective and no one is wrong.

      Three different stories and no one is wrong. They are all right.
      One follows Cinderella story, the other follows Red Riding Hood story and other follows Snowwhite story.

      Now I am using the word fairytale because this might be how you are looking at all religions and miracles.
      This is your view but don’t criticise their view because its different to how what you believe.


      Delete
    3. When kids asks questions then you have to give them answers and you cant just say “Oh well if they believe Krishna is a Murderer then I am OK with it”
      The children needs guidanvce as they are still maturing. They need to be directed towards right thinking and make them understand what I am trying to say to them.
      When an answer is given by someone from the books and it seems my answrs matched the ISCKONs perhaps then we cant just say “I am OK with it”.
      Its not OK if they still cannot comprehend the answers.
      You have to make them understand and make them accept with explanations.
      Off course its going to be difficult if you yourselves are in the same frame of mind as they are. But now I am explaining to you how to do it and therefore you must explain it properly till they accept what is written in the books is correct.

      I don’t expect them to suddenly start bowing to Krishna but at least they understand the correctly whats written in the book is right and what they are making up in their minds is wrong.
      This is NOT about agreeing or disagreeing.
      This is about giving and accepting the answer that is written in the ancient books.

      Lets take another simpler example to explain what Im trying to convey here.
      If they ask “Did Krishna play a flute?” Then the answer would be Yes because this is whats written in the book and the answer comes from the book.
      If they argue that “We think he played a Guitar” then this clearly a false notion.
      This false notion has to be removed.
      Its not about agreeing with them or disagreeing with them.
      Its not about forcing an answer.
      Its not about converting them.
      Its not about us being happy with their opinions.
      You cant say “I am OK with that”.
      If they still say “Krishna played a Guitar” then they are being rebellious, learning lies, making up false stories.
      Sometimes we have to be firm and say “No children you are wrong because Krishna played the flute and it is written in the books.
      If they haven’t read the books then we have to tell them that the Temple priests are correct because they have read the books and are telling us the truth.

      Now if they didn’t understand my answer then its because they are not ready for these types of question answers. Meaning they need to learn more about the soul and about God and about Krishna. The subject is long and there is no way I can explain it all here. So the answers given by ISCKON is what they must for the time being accept.

      Just because I don’t understand E=MC squared does not mean I think Eisenstein a liar. If I want to satisfy my own self this equation then I have to learn more. I need to take Maths and Advance Maths possibly and possibly Physics etc. Then perhaps I will understand.
      But until such time I have to accept it because many people have proven it and accepted it.
      Many people have had experience with Krishna and read his books so we have to accept it.
      Now I hope you will go back to them and try to convey my message. .



      Delete
    4. Bang on.. that's what I tell them that these are their beliefs and that's what they think is true...and they know this and that's why don't attend any of their functions because they know that there is difference of opinion and there is no point in debate...I am neither judging them nor saying they are wrong, I just put my beliefs when I am asked to explain why I don't believe in these things..so where is problem here...I am not saying they are wrong but it seems you want me to believe that I am wrong and it's my duty to show belief in their faith but they are free to ridicule mine...I absolutely don't have any problem with what ISKON, Islam or Christianity believes..or whom they worship, it's their right and choice..they have their choice and I have mine..this is very clear from my side.

      Asking question and expressing my opinion is my right, and they do the same...rather everyone does the same, did I ever say you can't say this, you should believe in this, that's your choice..

      I didn't say ever say "I don't like your answers" yeah, that might sound silly but I never say that, this is totally your conclusion, I say "I don't agree with your answer" and nothing wrong in it and I have my reasons for that disagreement..if I don't like then its my problem, everyone here is not supposed to say things which only I like they are free to express themselves in way they want...

      I don't even expect and I know that they are not going to say that Krishna was thief and murderer, why should they say if they don't think like that..but if some one thinks like this then he/she have freedom to explain his/her stand according to me..

      [[So you have to teach your children that the answer they have been given is correct from their perspective because they have read the answers from the books that is written about Krishna so they cannot give any other answers.]]

      this is what I tell them...and they understand that..here in discussion my son or me not questioning anyone's beliefs but telling our opinion...

      [[If they still go away and say I don’t like their answers and I still Krishna is a murderer is to be ignorant.]]
      so you mean I have to persuade them until they accept what I think is right, till then they are ignorant??? as I said my job is to teach how to think not what to think...where to look not what to look for...

      [[So when ISCKON tells you their answer then it is correct and we have to accept.]]
      just now you said that their answer is correct from their perspective, and not this...stay consistent with one way..why I have to accept which I think is not correct?? I have no problem if they think it's correct..but I have to accept?? why?? will they accept my answer?? or will they accept Allah is supreme godhead and ruler of entire universe? If not then why they or you expect others should accept their answers without questioning??

      Yes, they can tell story from their perspective and have their own truths or theories and as I already said I have no issues with it..but I have problem when some one says without any proof that my views are wrong, I should not say this...why? did I say they should not say what they say??

      there is difference between questioning and criticizing...normally I question and sometimes I criticize..based on my experience, not just like that and when I do this every time I explain what is the rational behind this and open to all questions from anyone..this is very simple philosophy I have and I think I explained it clearly not but still if you have doubts please feel free to ask..I don't mind questions or criticism...

      Delete
    5. [[When kids asks questions then you have to give them answers and you cant just say “Oh well if they believe Krishna is a Murderer then I am OK with it”]]
      Did I say this?? Please read the blog carefully...I wrote I was curious hoe my son will justify his statement..we always argue and debate before reaching or not reaching to any conclusion about any issue..

      I am OK with your answers, totally fine..but these are your answers and they suit you, or sound logical to you...similarly I have my answers and they sound logical to me..I am not telling you to accept my answers but it seems you are very sure that your answers are right and mine are wrong and I should accept your answers...:)

      Unfortunately my education doesn't teach me to accept everything written in any book, unless and until it makes sense to me..if others accept I don't have any problem but I only take it after evaluation and if I am convinced...you might have different attitude...

      [[If they still say “Krishna played a Guitar” then they are being rebellious, learning lies, making up false stories.]]

      yes, if they do like this..but they are not doing this..they or I am not questioning stuff like this..this is very simple example and everything is not that simple...I will give another example...if some book says Karna was wrong, evil..but I feel he wasn't and I have my own reasons for this..then I can definitely question conclusion of author (no matter who the author is) and put my theory and support it with my arguments...I am not twisting anything here I am just telling my perspective....this is how it is..

      yes, E=MC2 has been 'proven' and that's why accepted..but whatever is written in these books hardly anything is proven and almost everything can be debated...I am not the first or only person to ask these questions...before me many asked this and many will ask after also..show me how many people objected validity of E=MC2??? we can not compare apples with oranges..

      I read the same books which temple priests read and have similar brain which they have, they can easily learn what I do as my profession so can I...they don't have to accept what I say about chemistry if they don't think it's correct..in today's world it's very easy to verify..and I can do the same in their case..I am not using double standards here whatever is applicable for me I apply same rules to others...there are no separate rules for separate people..

      Delete
  9. So please don’t confuse the children by twisting other religions and details into it.
    The focus of this blog is on Krishna. Its his story –just like the story of Snowhite is about Snowwhite and not Cinderella or Red Riding Hood.
    Its about Krishna and His master plan to satisfy the souls he made promise to. Its his leela and not that of Prince Charming or the father bear or mother bear or anyone else.

    You are not being fair to your children or to the readers of this blog when you change the focus of the story.
    Jesus walked on water. This is how the fairytale is written. You cannot change it. So when you say we don’t like the explanation of Leela of Krishna, then you don’t really have a choice because this is how the story was written. You either like it or not. You went to the ISCKON get the explanation and they gave it to you.
    You cannot try to argue against what is already written. You can only like or dislike the story. That’s all you can do but even doing that you have to accept what’s written.

    So please try to explain to the children that Krisha is good.
    Perhaps its best you don’t tell them anything because you yourself are confused so I don’t think you will be explain anything to them.

    Please don’t bring in other characters from other fairy tales.
    Otherwise people would be confused –for example-- as to whether the wolf was trying to blow the house of the Three Pigs or the Three Bears.

    It seems you don’t like ISCKON people who are telling you nice stories of Krishna.
    You are mentally blocking their stories by confusing it with other characters of other religions.
    Or you are trying to portray yourself as someone so very wise that you don’t like it when they tell you Krishna is the nicest of them all.
    In trying to be all seeing and all wise please don’t get into confusion.

    We cannot confuse the stories otherwise we are confusing ourselves. We are trying to be over smart and trying to re-write the entire story as we like it. We cannot change the ending of a story that has already been completed. This is cheating.

    You have been given the story of Krishna so please tell your children to accept the story as it stands and not try to change it by looking for something else.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you didnt read the blog, I made it very clear what this blog is about..this blog is not about Krishna or any fairy tale...this is about one incident in my home..I wrote that clearly and I wanted to show how tow people can have totally different opinion about same person or incident...I think I made this point very very clear in my blog but somehow you missed it that's why I am repeating it again...

      Yes, as I already said as long as it is being told as fairy tale everything was fine and lovely problem started only when some people started insisting that this is a true story and it really happened...no one claims that Cinderella or Snow white really happened...

      I don't twist anything if I tell them story I tell them exactly as it is and they know most of the stories from Ramayan and Mahabharat..

      Yes, if its a fairy tale in which Jesus walked on water, why I should change, I enjoy fairy tales, love them but if some one comes to me and say this is a true story and you are atheist or sinner or monster if you don't agree then I have to question because it doesn't make sense then...If I tell you in my dreams yesterday I flew to moon and came back in an hour, you might say wow, interesting dream..but if I say I really did it and you have to believe me (that too without any evidence) then do you think you will accept it...thats the difference between fairy tale and reality...I hope I made my point clear

      We always argue about the things which are already written...have you seen anyone arguing about the things which are no being said or written??

      I have many good friends from ISKON and I love them, have very good relationship with them..I am not mentally blocking their stories but they are no claiming to tell me fairy tales..they are claiming that they are telling me absolute truth...then I have my questions...and then I am branded as atheist...:) simple..

      I am not confused about fairy tales, I love them and like them..I tell my kids many stories and also lessons associated with them, it's up to them to accept or reject, my job is to deliver.. they will find their answers if they are not happy with answers which I or you give to them..

      There is no confusion here from my side, I am very clear between fairy tales and reality but it seems some people like to live in fairy tales, they can, very fine I dont have problem but they cant force me to live in them...I am happy with real world and love to enjoy fairy tales as fairy tales nothing more, nothing less...

      Delete
    2. Yes, as I already said as long as it is being told as fairy tale everything was fine and lovely problem started only when some people started insisting that this is a true story and it really happened...no one claims that Cinderella or Snow white really happened...


      The problem is not whether the story is a fairy tale or real life history. The problem is with the person understanding and accepting because the stories are exactly the same no matter how you look at it.
      All the characters are the same.
      The same people died in the fairytale as in history.
      The names are same in the fairytale as in the history
      and
      Everything is same.

      Its only you/we the readers who are looking at with different views.
      Just because I say its historical does not automatically mean we should be subject to interrogation. Because this is what’s happening.

      Delete
    3. You wrote
      “but if some one comes to me and say this is a true story and you are atheist or sinner or monster if you don't agree then I have to question because it doesn't make sense then..”


      I don’t believe anyone at ISCKON called your children artiest or sinners or monsters did they?
      So your example is irrelevant to what’s being discussed here.
      You are simply bringing in a false situation--. Unless off course the ISCKON did call your children monsters.

      But knowing you, this is the first thing you would have written if such a statement was made.
      So I conclude from that, no such words were spoken and so your accusation does not stand. Not even as an example to convey some message to me.



      “If I tell you in my dreams yesterday I flew to moon and came back in an hour, you might say wow, interesting dream..but if I say I really did it and you have to believe me (that too without any evidence) then do you think you will accept it...thats the difference between fairy tale and reality...I”

      Now let me explain that both statements are correct and I hope will understand.

      Its is not whether the story is a dream or real life history. We have to understand from what perspective we are looking at this story and understand what perspective you are looking at this story.

      Now lets take your story a bit further.
      If there are a group of people who are ready to believe that you really did fly to the moon and came back in an hour then these are what we call followers of THAT Truth. That’s is their Truth.

      If there are people who believe the same story as only a dream, then this is their perspective and views.

      Notice both are only saying “Vinay flew to the moon and came in an hour”. Nothing more.

      Both are correct because in the dream and in your belief you both flew to the moon and came back within an hour.

      We have two different beliefs but one ‘truth’.
      The truth being “Vinay flew to the moon and came in an hour”.

      Now if the followers who say this was only a DREAM then that is fine. But they cant say you didn’t fly to the moon.
      If you go the believers who say this was all real. You ask them where did Vinay fly to?
      The answer is to the moon.
      They cant give any other different answer.

      Now to understand their deeper understanding behind their beliefs as to how and why you flew to the moon will require you to study further the books and volumes written about how you did it.
      We cant just sit on a simple statement “Vinay flew to the moon and came in an hour”.

      A different frame of mind is also required and this is another way to believe.

      The children have got their answer “Did Vinay fly to the moon?” Yes.
      But for them to understand how requires further reading and a deeper understanding of what these followers are saying.
      The children cant just say this is all nonsense simply because their immature mind is not able to comprehend the philosophy.
      An immature mind cannot comprehend the deeper meanings and we have to explain to them as I instructed previously. We cant let them continue to say that these “People who believe it to be real” are liars or the story is a lie because in truth the story simply says “Vinay flew to the moon and came back in an hour”.
      This is ‘truth’ if you think it’s a dream and its ‘truth’ if you believe it.


      Now I hope you were able to follow my explanations because this is something I cannot keep writing about. Im sure I could have written it a better but I hope you can understand what I am saying.

      Delete
    4. You write “We always argue about the things which are already written...have you seen anyone arguing about the things which are no being said or written??”

      No because they haven’t been written yet or spoken so how do we know what’s written or spoken. We are not mind readers yet.

      Also the only people who argue are those who are trying to make others see their points of view and refuse to see the other persons view point or understanding. This is due to their ego. They are trying to bring them down with their petty outlook and cannot see anything without arguments.




      You write ---“but they are not claiming to tell me fairy tales..they are claiming that they are telling me absolute truth...then I have my questions...and then I am branded as atheist...:) simple..”

      The simple fact is that you are going to a group of followers knowing full well what they believe, how they believe and their rituals and way of life.
      You go their place of worship and you then want them to follow your way.
      You have the audacity to tell them to accept they are following a fairytale.

      Indeed anyone will call you an artiest for doing that.

      This is how you come across to everyone. Arrogant, Proud, Belittling everyone’s way of culture, mocking a belief system etc etc because you thinks its fairy tale.

      You just cant see it, because you haven’t learnt to analyse yourself.
      You are so caught up analysing others that you fail to see what you are.
      You think you are doing something wonderful in the name of humanity but you cant see the harm you are doing to others who read your work. The offence you cause them.
      Even now you will say I am only doing this and that but in reality you have not seen your true nature on these blogs.



      You conclude “I am very clear between fairy tales and reality but it seems some people like to live in fairy tales, they can, very fine I dont have problem but they cant force me to live in them...”

      I have already showed you in my post above how you cannot see fairy tales and reality.
      Yes people like to love to dream and live in fairy tales because it gives them hope and light and understanding. You say you don’t have problem but then you keep finding some subjects to bash them all the time with. As if you are doing something wonderful by doing so. You need to check you abhiman.
      But until you self analyse your self, you will never see. You will always find faults with others and their religions and their beliefs with some excuse after excuse after excuse.

      No one is forcing you –only you mind think it so.
      It seems you are forcing your negatives views onto the world with this blog.
      Leave ISCKON people to their beliefs if you don’t like it. Why do you go there. If you go there then don’t talk about religion. If you talk about religion then know that this what they believe. Let them live in their dream world and you can discard it all when you walk out the door.
      Don’t come back here making blogs about them.
      Religion is not for you.

      Delete
    5. [[The same people died in the fairytale as in history.]]

      really..do you mean fairy tale and history are same?? world war-II is not a fairy tale, millions died for real and people still get horrified to read about that...everything is not same..Harry potter or Twilight are like fairy tales and people love them..they are crazy for those books, movies and actors who play these characters...now start telling people that they are real characters...those events really happened, don't question how..it's written in those books and accept it as history (because fairy tale or history no difference)...and see how they will react...you can not convert history into fairy tale or fairy tale into history they all are separate and people view and understand them differently..once you claim anything as history then it demands proof and investigation...and onus is on person who claims to prove that his claim is valid...I hope I made my point clear here..

      Delete
    6. [[I don’t believe anyone at ISCKON called your children artiest or sinners or monsters did they?]]

      No they didn't...I know that they won't they are too nice to do this...this is not related with ISKON or any church any way..but this was during my discussion with some believers of some of these sects online or in person...I din't mention this in relation with ISKON..there they just preach their philosophy..may not like my questions but they will never say these things (even though there books say this)..

      [[But knowing you, this is the first thing you would have written if such a statement was made.]]

      I already wrote two posts about the book Gita as it is..:) yes, I do object to these type of comments and allegations..:)

      [[Notice both are only saying “Vinay flew to the moon and came in an hour”. Nothing more]]

      yes, both are saying same thing but they mean different..there is lot more in it..one group believes that I flew for real and it really happened and other group thinks that it was a dream....as I said this is a very simple example..more complex...if I say I killed some on in my dream...and people believe it...then do you think situation is same...Vinay killed some one in his dream...and Vinay really killed someone...are totally different statements with totally different reactions and consequences...I hope now you understand the difference between reality and dream....they are not same..:) one statement requires an evidence but the other doesn't and it's a huge difference...

      [[ But they cant say you didn’t fly to the moon.]]

      they can very much say that..because if it was a dream..it didn't happen...so simple...and if my followers claim it did happen then these people can very much say this and question...isn't it obvious..at least it's obvious to me..

      [[“Vinay flew to the moon and came in an hour”]]

      people will bother to study the statement and the books related with it only if I claim I did it in reality otherwise they won't even bother or ignore it as a fiction..and when they study the real incidents they can question, argue, criticize to test it's validity... that's what scientists and historians do...

      [[The children have got their answer “Did Vinay fly to the moon?” Yes.]]

      Children will ask "Did Vinay fly to the moon in reality?" and their reaction will depend on whether answers is "yes, he did that in reality" or "yes, but in his dreams"...both answers are affirmative...but the reactions will be totally opposite...

      [[The children cant just say this is all nonsense simply because their immature mind is not able to comprehend the philosophy.]]

      yes, philosophy might be difficult to understand sometimes but history is easy to grasp and understand, no one is even arguing here about deeper meaning here, the questions are only about validity of incidents not the message they deliver..message is already very well taken and understood..that's why I tell and listen these stories, read these books...not for history but for philosophy..only philosophy and I only question concepts or traditions which I think are outdated and people still insist on following them even today..

      you have done a really great job on explaining your view but I already knew all this, but thanks a lot for your efforts...I also hope that I made my stand clear here..if still you have any questions feel free to ask...any question is welcomed on my blog..:)

      Delete
    7. [[They are trying to bring them down with their petty outlook and cannot see anything without arguments]]

      expressing your point of view in front of others doesn't mean bringing their point of view down. Every new philosophy and concept was introduced after lot of debates and arguments, ego is not the only reason for arguments..its one of the reasons...there can be so many other reasons..

      [[The simple fact is that you are going to a group of followers knowing full well what they believe]]

      really?? I didnt even know what was ISKON till I came to US and know about their philosophy only after attending few sessions about their book Gita as it is...and yes..if I go now I know what they think and believe in..and this is not about ISKON alone its just and example you can put any orthodox, right wing sect here, I did't tell them they are following a fairy tale rather they had audacity of telling me their fairy tale is real and I should believe in it...do you see the difference..:)

      [[Arrogant, Proud, Belittling everyone’s way of culture, mocking a belief system etc etc because you thinks its fairy tale.]]

      I don't ridicule anyone's culture or beliefs..read those books there is enough material in them to ridicule other cultures..I respect all other beliefs and expect others to respect mine for me respect has to be mutual, it can not be one sided..when I question things it's not our of disrespect or arrogance, I have genuine doubt and want to get an answers for it, that too if possible...

      [[you keep finding some subjects to bash them all the time with]]

      yes, I do and not because I love bashing hem..I have seen with my own eyes how these philosophies have bees used to suppress women,how casteism treats people, how gays are victimized...and then only I raise objection only related with those subjects...please check the blog posts and show me a single instance where I said people should not worship God of their choice or should not believe in some "X" religion...just show me...dont say whatever comes to your mind..or assume things beyond certain limit..

      [[It seems you are forcing your negatives views onto the world with this blog.]]

      I am not forcing my views via this blog..I am expressing them and it's up to readers to decide whether they are positive or negative and they are free to do that...

      [[Leave ISCKON people to their beliefs if you don’t like it. Why do you go there]]

      yes..I did, I only go when I am invited and topic sounds interesting to me...I don't question their beliefs..why should I..I know what they believe...if I go there I only raise questions related to the topic of that day's discussion...not about religion in general or their beliefs...

      [[Let them live in their dream world and you can discard it all when you walk out the door. Don’t come back here making blogs about them.]]

      yes, I do precisely that..and when I write my blog it's about my views which I experienced in my life or my personal interactions...and it's my choice to write or not to write..I cant tell you what to do and what not to do and I expect the same treatment..very simple..

      [[Religion is not for you.]]

      thanks for your suggestion and judgement. I am proud Hindu and will remain one...and I don't judge others...religion or no religion..it's a personal choice...and I respect that..I am no one to suggest what is good or bad for them..it's an individual's choice..I hope you understand this...thanks a lot..

      Delete
  10. You also say “if you assume that about anyone then there is no scope for argument or discussion.”

    I do not understand why you wish to change this story so that it pleases your mind only just because you don’t like it.
    I repeat the story of Krishna is already written in the format it has been. The format says Krishna is the God of all Gods. You cannot change it to something that pleases you so that you can have a nice argument.
    This is false thinking and cheating the author and Krishna.




    You also say “if this is right and true then how come if Kansa kills some one or any other person kills anyone then he/she is not liberating the soul but is branded as a criminal and devil? as I said once you assume that 'X' is a god then whatever that character does is justifiable..”

    Does this mean you do not know the difference between right and wrong? If you don’t know this much then how can you teach your children anything. I can see why your children are very very confused.

    As I said this is how the story is written.
    I believe this as historical and this is how it occurred historically. It cannot be changed.
    You think its fairytale then this is how the fairy tale was written, you cannot change it.
    The story say that Kans is the villain and Krishna the hero, the wicked Queen is the villain and snowhite the hero, the wolf is the villain and the pigs the heroes and so forth. Don’t try to change the story.

    When you try to argue the point that Kans should be a hero then you are really lost.


    If you don’t like Jesus story or Krishna story then write your own story but don’t change story of Jesus for example changing water to Orange Juice.

    Kans kills for pleasure and Krishna killed for the protection of those he killed for fun!
    This is very easy to understand. Even your children can understand this much Im sure.





    We have to have the right frame of mind in the character we are reading about.
    If Im reading about Three little Pigs then I don’t expect them to meeting a cowboy.
    We have to stay focused on the characters that have been created and we are reading about otherwise we would loose the plot.


    So Yes. When I say you must stay focused about whom we are reading then all will be understood.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. who is changing the story here? Show me a single example from my blog or any post where I changed a story, and why should I change it..I didn't say my kids that Krishna didn't kill Kansa or Kansa was good guy or anything that sort...I wonder how much you can assume about me and that too so confidently...I didn't change the story..check it again and then accuse me for something like this..

      If the story says some one is gods of gods, why should I change..here people are questioning..if Krishna is gods of gods then who is Allah? who is God about whom Jesus is talking? are they same? then why different names? etc. etc...I am not changing anything get real...

      Just now you said that these stories are fairy tales and one should read them in that spirit and now suddenly you are saying these are historical facts, and these things happened exactly written in some books...I hope you understand the difference between history and fairy tales..and you were saying I am changing the things?? wow..simply amazing..

      Just show me where I changed the story just don't keep on repeating the same point without even giving a single evidence to support it...

      Yes, they understand the difference between killings by Krishna and Kans, what's your point here? can you tell me who was responsible for killing of those six kids? Kans, Devaki-Vasudev, that aakashwani or someone else? I am assuming we are talking about history and not the fairy tale here, if its fairy tale then forget about the question answer only if you think its a historical incidence...

      I am focused that's why getting so many questions..and I have answers for all of them, I don't worry about it..but thanks for your concern..

      Delete
  11. You said ---who is changing the story here?

    Now try to understand what I wrote. You had told me you wanted to argue about the story of Krishna in its present form as it was written because as you said “there is no scope for argument or discussion”
    This sentence clearly means you wish us o change the story of Krishna so you can have an argument or discussion. This is what I understood by you writing this.

    Now this is why I wrote it. You need to read what you are writing then understand why I make such replies.



    ‘Just now you said that these stories are fairy tales and one should read them in that spirit’

    No I didn’t say it like that all. You need to read it back.
    I wrote “Even if you and your children consider this to be a fairy tale then even in the fairytale the explanation I have given you stands true.”

    I also then replied further to say
    Now I am using the word fairytale because this might be how you are looking at all religions and miracles.


    So what I am saying is that this is how you come across as reading the stories from Hindu Dharma. I did not say these stories are fairy tales. I repeat I said this is how your mind is thinking.
    I also said that other peole consider them historical. This si to show the different mindset between you and the ISCKON.
    I was saying ISCKON believe it as historical and presumed you were looking it as fairytales because you clearly didn’t believe them to be real and you have stressed this many times all over this blog.


    You said “I am assuming we are talking about history and not the fairy tale here.”

    And I have tried to explain that it makes no difference what you believe because the story in either situation is the same.
    Im my historical perspective six babies will be killed by Kans and in your fairytale perspective six babies will be killed.

    What is the difficulty in understanding this simple point and then you say proudly “I am focused”


    I think I am wasting my time here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. [[This sentence clearly means you wish us o change the story of Krishna so you can have an argument or discussion.]]

      really?? I never said I want to argue the story or incidents from story..the debate is about conclusions and their relevance..and there is difference between argument and discussion, I don't mind discussion but I am not very much interested in argument..I do it only when it's absolutely necessary..

      It's very simple for me fairy tale and history are totally different. I can not assume something as a fairy tale and accept same thing as a history. Conclusions from fairy tale and history are different and normally people perceive them differently...I also made my all point very clear in my replies. I have no problem with ISKON or any other religion's views and beliefs...I only question the things which are relevant to me (personally or socially)..otherwise I don't care, it's everyone's personal matter which god they believe, how they worship, where they worship, which religion they follow...and I wrote it many times..

      If I have certain views and wish to share them I will share them on this blog, this blog is specifically for that...you are free to read them, accept them, reject them, criticize them, ignore them..it's your choice and right. Thanks a lot for your inputs and now I hope we are clear about each other's point of view.

      Delete
  12. After reading some of your reply I have come to conclusion that you dont have the capacity to understand my replies and its futile to write any further.
    Your replies are truly cringe worthy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. good...and thanks for the complements...and for your information I can say the same thing but I won't because my culture and training doesn't allow me to judge other's and comment like this...I know the worth of my replies and one shows their culture and training by their attitude towards others...thanks for this...your replies were great and I enjoyed them...and thanks a lot for your efforts...good luck and all the best.

      Delete
  13. Just read your reply
    "but I won't because my culture and training doesn't allow me to judge other's"

    But your entire blogs are judgemental.
    It demeans others culture and
    you try to depict and twist others relgion in some disgusting way to suit your ego and I cant beleive you make these comments.

    Why dont you look within before making these comments.
    Its so simple.
    Honestly my final advice.
    Just open your eyes.

    "Judge not and you will not be judged"
    Start with the man in the mirror.
    Realise your self before trying to make other realise themsleves.

    The problem with the whole world of bloggers is they are busy trying to change others but cant see the bad in their own self.

    Realize your self.
    "First take out the log that in your eye before taking the speck out of your brothers eye".


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. [But your entire blogs are judgemental. It demeans others culture and you try to depict and twist others relgion in some disgusting way to suit your ego and I cant beleive you make these comments.]]

      really?? what do you mean by judgmental?? I am expressing my opinion about certain issues, situations or persons, I want to share them with others...and everyone is entitled to have their own opinions...aren't we..you have your and I have my opinions, on my blog I share my views, and I made this point clear many times in my comments as well as on my blog...blog is not place to judge anything, I discuss things here and express my views..it's not a court but a place to discuss and share ideas, I think this explanation should clear any doubts in your mind..

      Whose religion I am twisting here?? At least in this post I am talking about my own religion..and I also can talk about other religions if things related with them are affecting me socially or personally...

      disgusting way???? what do you mean by this??? show me the example??? dont just say whatever comes to your mind...my ego don't need any blog or argument for satisfaction...

      I always look within before writing my post and comments and that's why I say so clearly that these are not judgements but my opinions, so please look within you before giving suggestion to others, this might help you..

      My eyes are already open, please open yours...rather your advise sounds like, "please close your eyes and accept whatever is dictated blindly" to me...but I can't do this as my eyes and mind are open..please open your eyes then you might be able to see what I am seeing...just give it a try..

      I am expressing my views and ideas here which helped me to realize myself...this process might help others in their journey of self realization and thats the whole purpose of this blog..the main idea is to share and discuss.

      [[The problem with the whole world of bloggers is they are busy trying to change others but cant see the bad in their own self.]]

      really..I thought you have problems only with my blog...but it seems there are many more like me with whom you have some issues..I haven't find any blogger about whom I can say something like this..I read lot of blogs, with some I don't agree but I totally support their right to express their opinion..but as I said many times already that's how I think, may be you don't like this...

      [["Realize your self. First take out the log that in your eye before taking the speck out of your brothers eye".]]

      For me self realization is a continuous process, a journey..I am here to learn and share..

      Thanks for all suggestions..and I hope this blog will help you in a process to realize yourself...good luck..

      Delete
  14. Smart kid. Personally, I agree with him(no offense.) Krishna was a murderer and a thief. He was always inciting the Pandavas into acts of violence. The shameful slaying of Karna and Duryodhana are just a few of them. But those are just my views.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks a lot Michael for sharing your views, this is what I wanted to discuss by sharing this incident, tow people can have very different opinions about same incident or person and both of them can be right in their own way. Somehow people dont accept this logic, they believe if you are not with us then you are against us, there are certain situations in out life where we should agree to disagree with each other, it makes life easy and also helps to understand others point of view. If we understand this simple fact then all our discussions will be healthy and informative for both sides involved in discussion otherwise its just an useless argument.

      Delete
    2. It's good that you let your kids draw their own conclusion, most people just say "You believe this. YOU BELIEVE THIS!" and consider the case closed.
      Hope you and your son do okay.

      Delete