Thursday, November 22, 2012

I am neither a theist nor atheist..

Normally people who believe in God or the one who don't believe like to divide the whole world in two sections, one set of people who believes in God and its existence are called 'theist' and other section who don't believe in God or existence of some power like that are called 'atheist'. There are many subgroups among both these groups but normally people like to associate themselves with any one of these categories. Both groups are very passionate about their beliefs and have very strong points to support their hypothesis. I love to hear both the sides, both have many very good points and that's why it really amazes me when I see that both sides feel that other side don't have any logic  or rationale behind their hypothesis and funny thing is that both feel that other side is totally ignorant and stupid.

This post is not about supporting or criticizing any of these groups but it's about what I think, it is about my views, many theist people who know me think that I am atheist who doesn't believe in God or don't follow any rituals of any organized religion. Because of this behavior theist put me in 'atheist' category and above all this some posts on my blog clearly show my views about organized religion and traditional concept of God which is preached by many sects and groups. But at the same time many who see me and meet me at some poojas, festivals, religious gatherings, see me singing bhajans or aaratis (devotional songs), involved in so called spiritual discussions and gatherings think that I am kind of religious guy who needs a little more push to become a full fledged devotee. And because of many questions which I ask they also think that I need some proper guidance and a Guru so that I can also become one of them, a devotee who accepts everything without questioning (or minimum questioning). They say that if this happens then I can enjoy all benefits which come from being part of organized religious group. Many of my atheist friends like my posts and views where I question some religious concepts and traditions which are still practiced, I target specially the one which result in discrimination or suppression of particular class of society or particular gender.

I personally think that I don't fit in any of these groups, may be there is no proper definition for people like me, I am sure there are many like me who have all inclusive philosophy who are fine with concept of God or no God, any religion or no religion as long as it maintains peace, harmony, mutual respect, dignity of all beings and allows healthy discussion to improve knowledge. I also agree that my views about current from of religion and concept of God are more closer to atheism rather than theism. The problem with the conventional definition of theist or atheist is that it puts too much emphasis on presence of deity, people who believe if at least one deity exists are called theist and who don't believe in existence of deities are called atheist. Both these groups don't meet an eye to eye and try to score point against each other wherever they can. Both of them are becoming quite fanatic and extremist in their views. I don't like this constant tug of war and continuous attempts to insult or humiliate each other. I think both can learn a lot from each other and can peacefully co-exist but current format of organized religion or many cult movements or fanatic atheism doesn't allow this. As far as I read about religion, I found that Hinduism (not in its current form but in its early stages when it had no name) was the only civilization which not only allowed but encouraged questioning as a way to gain and generate knowledge. Back then it also gave the option to reject all current theories and philosophies and find something new. Thinkers of that time never forced any particular method of self realization but some how this tolerant thinking lost its ground as it developed in organized religion which we call Hinduism today. Many things changed and today it is not very different than most of other religions practiced around the world.

I feel that people of both these groups can learn lot of good things from each other. The best scenario will be where both can co-exist together and get benefited from each other. There are many who don't need religion or God to live their life, they are strong enough to live their life without need of any such support. At the same time there are many who need religion and God desperately and can not imagine their life without these things. We all no matter which group you associate with need to be sensitive to feelings of both these groups and understand their views. If people ridicule each others beliefs all the time then how we can understand each other and share our ideas? I think even common people (who are not involved in research) need to adopt the scientific mindset and logical thinking. Scientists listen to new concepts and ideas from all fields of science, don't ridicule just because they don't like it or think it's crazy. In science any question or objection is not taken as offense but an opportunity of improve and learn more, what is wrong to have this type of mindset in our real life? If everyone can think like this then slowly these labels even if they exist will stop to have rigid meanings and stop dividing people based on their beliefs. In science chemists don't hate physicist or biologists just because they belong to different field, rather they help each other and borrow ideas liberally from wherever they feel necessary, isn't it a beautiful philosophy? Isn't this thinking or approach helped us to solve some great mysteries or problems? This interdisciplinary approach lead us to invent great things which make our life more comfortable and happy. I am not preaching any new philosophy here, rather I am saying we can use same philosophy which is already in use, so no matter which religion you follow, whether you consider yourself theist or atheist but try to think like scientist and I think it can do wonders, let's be happy and make others happy.

Thanks for reading and please share your views on this topic. 

Links:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[Copyright: Vinay Thakur. Please contact the author for re-posting or publishing]

34 comments:

  1. The problem is we do not know the definition of God. We have not tried to understand understand who is God, or who is Krishna. As per Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says, "There is no truth superior to me." i.e. Krishna says He is God. If Krishna is God, He owns absolutely everything, then how can a person who "steals" his own things be called a thief? Please explain this to Yash, and you also understand. It is very, very difficult to understand God if you are not a convinced theist. Do not try to judge Krishna with your material logic. Your blog is secure, but at the end of our life we may not be!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you say that we do not know the definition of God then what is the stuff mentioned in all those holy books? They all define their concept of God in their own way and people choose whichever they like.

      In Bhagavad Gita Krishna says, "There is no truth or power superior to me" in Bible or in Quran some one else says the same thing, what a big deal in this, does this statement means anything? There are many who claim the ownership of this universe and Krishna is one of them, he is not the only one, get real and understand this fact.

      If I give my own money to someone else and then go and take it from his/her house without informing that person then it's still called theft or stealing, even if it was my money which I took from that person's home...I hope you understood what I want to say here. I explained this to Yash and he understood that stealing is bad and that's what I wanted to convey.

      There is no material or spiritual logic, logic is logic. What do you mean by your last sentence in your comment? We all know the fact that life can be very unpredictable...so??

      Delete
    2. Your example makes no sense because in the case of Krishna the Gopis know that Krishna will come and take his butter. It is what they wanted him to do in their desires and He is fulfilling them.
      Secondly He came to overthrow Kans and the butter that was going to his palace was being taken. Krishna did this to make Krishna aware that his death is coming or change his ways.
      The real thief is Kans. Kans is not a hero or a victim in this story. This is why the people appealed and prayed and asked God to come down and rescue them from his tyranny.
      Krishna did this.

      Also let me tell you that what you understand by this story is wrong and you try to make some logic where none is required.

      Your mothers understanding is that it brings joy and smile to her face when she hears and sees the leela of Krishna stealing butter. This is due to her higher elevation of spiritual intellect. This is whats is happening to all of Krishna devotees. To some it brings tears of ecstasy in hearing this. They are not suddenly learning to steal.

      Your son on the other hand is questioning out of ignorance which is fine.

      But by explaining wrongly about Krishna to Yash you are fully ignorant of your Mothers understanding and that of the explanations given in the books.

      This is where intellect is required and Im afraid you seem to lack how to decipher religion or God or their stories.
      When you don’t have such understanding then you have no right to teach your son wrong information by the example you gave him.
      When you refuse to understand then you don’t have the right to question.
      Trying to block out what is being explained in the most simplest form possible and if you are still not able to understand then ………………..

      Delete
  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  3. You try to explain how wonderful you are in this blog but it really doesn’t matter what you are ie whether you are atheist or theist or spiritualist or not, Hindu Muslim or Christian or religious or not religious, whether you are just giving an opinion from your perspective or copying articles from various sources or whatever it is you are doing here. There is only one problem with you.

    It is your basic understanding of what people are writing to you after you have posted your so called views.

    You just simply don’t try to understand them.
    I have given you very very simple explanations with examples in both the theist and atheistic perspective or if you like to call it religious and non-religious way but you still refuse to understand and completely misinterpreted them. Your replies suggested you didn’t have a clue to its understanding. All you did was try to my argue my point away.

    So writing this blog to glorify yourself is pointless when you don’t wish to understand people opinions.


    I say why bother with comments. Don’t allow them. Just post the blog and be done with if you are not willing to understand any point made by the guests who come on your blog.

    There is no discussion on this blog. All I see you negate every comments made.
    There is no attempt to understand what so ever.


    It ALL about you you you and your opinions ONLY count.
    This is what you are doing.
    You might not think so but may be oneday when you are older and read them again perhaps you will understand what Im trying to say.

    I know you may like my comments you can delete this or edit it or whatever but ondeay the truth will unfold before your eyes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. [[I have given you very very simple explanations with examples in both the theist and atheistic perspective or if you like to call it religious and non-religious way but you still refuse to understand and completely misinterpreted them. Your replies suggested you didn’t have a clue to its understanding. All you did was try to my argue my point away.]]

      really...I refuse to understand?? What I refuse to understand?? I totally understood what you want to say and what you mean and I guess I wrote it in some of my comments, I think by 'refuse to understand' you mean 'refuse to agree with you'...and I know very well that many people have this concept that as long as other person doesn't agree with them they assume that other person is dumb. I wrote a blog on this subject also, please go through it,

      http://selfrealization-vinay.blogspot.com/2012/08/difference-between-understanding-and.html

      I don't delete or edit someone else's comments on my blog (unless and until they are totally irrelevant to the subject). What do you mean by I negate every comments made on my blog?? There are many to which I agree and to many I don't...and where I agree I express my agreement and where I disagree, I express that also and also offer my explanation why I don't agree...isn't it the same thing we do during discussion?? I can't just say I disagree and walk away I like to provide explanation for my disagreement and I do that, same thing you also do but I don't call it negating or insulting (or whatever) my comments that's the difference between you and me.

      Yes, post on this blog is about my opinion on that subject (and it is true with any blog), but comment section is open to every one, and each comment posted by you or someone else on all posts is available for readers so that they can read and understand others point of view also, I don't edit them or delete them, check it out and let me know if you find that it's not true. Please don't make statements like this out of frustration.

      Truth unfold in front of my eyes every day and many people including you help me in this quest. I care and read others opinion, you may not (unless they agree with you) and my blog is proof of this. Thanks for your comments.

      Delete

    2. [[[really...I refuse to understand?? What I refuse to understand??]]
      Yes all the time. Even now you are doing it.



      [[[ I think by 'refuse to understand' you mean 'refuse to agree with you']]]

      No there is nothing to agree or disagree. You simply need to understand which you are not capable of because you keep putting arguments anything said to you.




      [[[...and I know very well that many people have this concept that as long as other person doesn't agree with them they assume that other person is dumb.]]

      No this is not correct. No Krishna worshipper will tell you this. They will say you don’t have intellect to understand. There is a difference being dumb and refusing to not understand. You are making this up and please don’t make such assumptions.





      [[[ I wrote a blog on this subject also, please go through it,]]]
      You write many things but you don’t like the answer people give you to your blogs so you put weak arguments .













      [[I don't delete or edit someone else's comments on my blog (unless and until they are totally irrelevant to the subject). ]]]
      Well I saw you delete Mayur Gs comment. This is why I said it.




      [[What do you mean by I negate every comments made on my blog??]]
      Exactly by what you just said. A perfect example is all as above.


      [[isn't it the same thing we do during discussion??]]]
      No the answers you give are wholly negative and opposing and not that of understanding or even an attempt to understand. A person who understand will have a different reply altogether.





      [[I can't just say I disagree and walk away I like to provide explanation for my disagreement and I do that, same thing you also do but I don't call it negating or insulting (or whatever) my comments that's the difference between you and me.]]

      No the difference is you don’t ever say you understand those who worship God and why they say their God is superior. All you ever do take cheap shots at them. There is no understanding at all. Time after time you have proven this.



      [[Yes, post on this blog is about my opinion on that subject (and it is true with any blog),]]
      Off course its ALL about you.
      We already know this.
      You don’t have to tell me.
      Its ONLY your opinions is right.
      Others who write on this blog are fools.



      [[[ Please don't make statements like this out of frustration.]]
      There is frustration when you in the most simplest of languages an explanation is made you just brush it aside.
      You then wonder why I stop after a certain amount of reply.
      Just think on that before gung ho into a reply.




      [[Truth unfold in front of my eyes every day and many people including you help me in this quest.]]
      Well its good to know but I have yet to see proof of your understanding. This confession is just to please me or the other readers?

      Delete
    3. [[whether you are just giving an opinion from your perspective or copying articles from various sources or whatever it is you are doing here.]]

      you are accusing me of plagiarism here, whenever I borrow an idea or quote any sentence I give the reference for that in my reference section, very few blogs have reference section in them and my blog is one of them. If you found any copy and paste material on my blog (which you must have as you are so confident in making this allegation) then please bring it to my notice and I assure you that proper care will be taken to remove them or acknowledge original source. I will appreciate if you show few instances here.

      Just making baseless allegation without any proof is not a sign of intelligent person (which I am sure you are) so please produce some evidence. Thanks in advance for your time and efforts.

      Delete
    4. [[No this is not correct. No Krishna worshipper will tell you this. They will say you don’t have intellect to understand. There is a difference being dumb and refusing to not understand. You are making this up and please don’t make such assumptions.]]

      really?? you are doing the same thing my friend. I don't judge or comment about others intellect and let me say this once again loud and clear (so that you can listen to this) that 'I already UNDERSTOOD what you want to say' OK, my friend, but I don't agree with it, now get over with your frustration and move on. I am not feeling bad or questioning your intellect because you don't agree with my views or argument and I am Krishna's friend not his worshiper....so may be you are scared to express opinion about your God bur I am comfortable and free to talk about my friend here (or anywhere)...I hope you understood the difference.

      [[ you put weak arguments]]

      weak?? again its your opinion, weak or strong they are my views and I stand by them.

      [[Well I saw you delete Mayur Gs comment. This is why I said it.]]

      really?? when did you see me deleting them?? Those comments were deleted by "author" of the comments, not me, so as usual my polite suggestion, please check the facts before accusing others. I already said that I don't delete comments unless it's absolutely necessary and disagreement with my views is not the criteria I use to delete them, they all are useful and add something to my blog and I really appreciate efforts of people who read my blog and also who comment on it.

      [[Exactly by what you just said. A perfect example is all as above.]]

      then what are you doing with my comments?? appreciating them?? negating them?? criticizing them?? or you just dont have intellect to grasp them?? what is it??

      [[No the difference is you don’t ever say you understand those who worship God and why they say their God is superior]]

      really...read the comments again..whenever I dont understand I ask for more clarification, I do "understand" why they say their God is superior but I don't "agree" with them..so what's the problem here??

      [[Its ONLY your opinions is right.
      Others who write on this blog are fools.]]

      really?? good conclusion. That's what you think and I already clarified on this point many times, so no need to clarify once again, but if you think you are a fool thats your opinion and problem but please don't include other readers or commentators in this..thanks for your understanding.

      [[Well its good to know but I have yet to see proof of your understanding. This confession is just to please me or the other readers?]]

      What proof you want, do you want me to say that you are right and I am wrong?? does this convince you that I understood your comments and I am very intelligent person?? This blog is not written to please you or anyone, this is a place where I express myself and share my thoughts with others. I already said that I can understand your frustration but can't help it. I enjoyed this discussion and I wish that you also would have enjoyed it.

      Delete
    5. [[You try to explain how wonderful you are in this blog but it really doesn’t matter what you are ie whether you are]]

      I don't try to explain how wonderful I am via this blog, but try to explain who I am and why I am like this, if you find it wonderful then thanks for your compliments but if you don't then also thanks.
      Off course it doesn't matter for others who I am and I know this but it matters to me, so what are you trying to say here??

      [[There is only one problem with you.
      It is your basic understanding of what people are writing to you after you have posted your so called views.]]

      How many times you are going to repeat the same thing about which I explained many times in my previous comments. I read and understand all comments made on my blog and then only reply to them, if I don't understand I ask for more clarification...I hope this is now clear to you.

      Delete
  4. Final replies on this.


    [[you are accusing me of plagiarism here]]
    [[I give the reference for that in my reference section]]
    [[Just making baseless allegation without any proof]]
    Actually Im not accusing you of anything. Yet again you have just ‘gung ho’ into a reply without even thinking what Ive written. This is your other fault. You always think the worst in my replies. You never try to for one second understand what Im saying.
    I said you are copying articles from various sources. This does not mean it’s a bad thing. We all are not experts in all the fields of religion and so it doesn’t matter and besides as you say you are leaving links to where you obtained them from.

    Yet here you go again making a mountain out of molehill and going blah blah blah.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. [[you are just giving an opinion from your perspective or copying articles from various sources]]
      what does this sentence mean?? let me know what do you mean by copying?? I read many books and posts and get some ideas but I don't copy them I make my own post based on my readings and views. Yes copying is a bad thing, if you would have said inspired by news article, or related with so and so post then that's a different thing but word 'copy' has very simple and straightforward meaning...anyway thanks for your clarification, glad that you are not accusing me of plagiarism.

      Delete
  5. Final replies on this

    [[I don't judge or comment about others intellect]]
    That’s funny because your entire blog is made up this judgement and you always think other are less intelligent then you. Just read all your blogs again and again and you will find the answers on any one of them.


    [[let me say this once again loud and clear]]
    You don’t have to shout. I’ll know when you have understood by the next blog or the next replies.


    [['I already UNDERSTOOD what you want to say' OK, my friend]]
    I wish that were true my friend. But its not.


    [[I am not feeling bad or questioning your intellect because you don't agree with my views or argument]]
    Intellect is an integral part of life.
    Understanding how the other person lives, how the other culture works, where the other community lives, how the other religions conducts, understanding their language and so forth is so important. With our intellect we learn to live with differences and even difference of opinions. But its only when we make a conflict of those differences that conflicts arise like those around the world in every homes and communities and countries.

    If the intellect to understand this is not there then we have the problems you see around the world.
    By posting negative things about my Hindu religion does not make you intelligent.



    [[I am Krishna's friend not his worshiper....]]
    A friend does not question His authority.
    A friend doe not stab in the back with awful posts.
    A friend does not compare him to Kans nor gives such bad examples.
    A friend does not insinuate that He is a thief and a Murderer.
    A friend does not agree with bad thing others writr about him.
    A friend does not mean you can blog what ever rubbish you like about Him.

    A friend of Krishna has to know what position he is to Krishna. Meaning that you have to accept him as God. Even Arjuna His greatest friend understood this much.
    Krishna is God and not some person down the road.
    A father can be friend but he is still your father; we never forget that.
    A mother can be friend but we never forget that she is a Mother.
    A wife, A son and so forth.
    A God can be your friend but we never forget He is The LORD our GOD.



    [[so may be you are scared to express opinion about your God bur I am comfortable and free to talk about my friend here (or anywhere)...I hope you understood the difference.]]
    Well Im not conformable with your pretend friendship with Krishna. As they say “With friends like you who needs enemies?”


    [[I hope you understood the difference]]
    I just wish you do.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't judge anyone's intellect, period. This clearly means I don't think anyone is either more or less intelligent than me or someone else, for me everyone is same, their age, gender, religion doesn't matter.

      [[A friend does not question His authority.
      A friend doe not stab in the back with awful posts.
      A friend does not compare him to Kans nor gives such bad examples.
      A friend does not insinuate that He is a thief and a Murderer.
      A friend does not agree with bad thing others writr about him.
      A friend does not mean you can blog what ever rubbish you like about Him.]]

      really...since when? I do most of the things mentioned above with my friends, I criticize, argue, make fun, etc...

      I didn't stab in the back to anyone (not to Krishna) my post is open and free to read all (including Krishna) so get real, it's a open post (unless you think Krishna is dead)
      I didn't agree or disagree with any conclusion, I didn't say that Kansa is good and Krishna is bad, these are your own conclusions, please mention like that, don't submit your conclusions on my name.

      I don't have conflict with any person or religion. Rather check literature of many sects and religions and you will realize what conflict is.

      [[With our intellect we learn to live with differences and even difference of opinions.]]
      yes, I totally agree and that's what I am trying to do. I don't have any problems with others opinions but that doesn't mean I don't have mine. I don't have conflict but if you have then that's not my problem.

      If I am friend with anyone then it doesn't matter who that person is friend is just a friend, there can be different layers in friendship that's all. I am not pretending here, again stop judging others...:)

      Delete
    2. [[[I didn't stab in the back to anyone (not to Krishna) my post is open and free to read all (including Krishna) so get real, it's a open post (unless you think Krishna is dead)]]]



      I dont know what you are saying here [[[(unless you think Krishna is dead)]]]

      Ive just realised after reading this comment you make --that you perhaps dont really understand English.

      'To stab someone in the back' is phrase meaning to betray someone. Not physically put a knife in their back.



      Delete
    3. yeah..I don't really understand English...and I clearly said what I mean in my comment, I know what stabbing in back means..I didn't say anything wrong or bad about Krishna or Ram behind their back or cheated/betrayed them...but it's all in good spirit and in form of constructive criticism...I have similar relationship with all my friends, but many be you don't have capacity to understand this, because your definition of friendship is different, the way you look at these characters is different than I look at them, so I can understand this, don't worry I got your point.

      Delete
  6. Final replies on this

    { [[ you put weak arguments]]
    weak?? again its your opinion, weak or strong they are my views and I stand by them.}

    You are ready to agree with someone who says false things about Ramas feelings. You argue that Kans is not a killer just like Krishna is not. You give poor examples to your son about Krishna,-- only to name a few examples.
    You might think your answers are wonderful and righteous but they are not.
    I don’t even know where to begin with the replies you’ve given me.




    [[Well I saw you delete Mayur Gs comment. This is why I said it.]]
    [[really?? when did you see me deleting them??]]
    OK I made a mistake on that one fair comment.




    {{{[[Exactly by what you just said. A perfect example is all as above.]]
    then what are you doing with my comments?? appreciating them?? negating them?? criticizing them?? or you just dont have intellect to grasp them?? what is it??}}}

    lol I was trying to explain the errors of your writing/thinking but as usual you
    didn’t ……..I wont say it.





    [[I do "understand" why they say their God is superior but I don't "agree" with them..so what's the problem here??]]
    If you understand why people say their God is superior then DON’T make comments suggesting they are wrong to say this.
    It’s the way you write stuff.
    Asking for clarification then NOT accepting the answers given is not what I call ‘asking for clarification’. That whole episode I tried to explain about Krishna to Yash, initially I thought you understood then you made some comments and suggested you understood nothing.



    [[..but if you think you are a fool thats your opinion and problem but please don't include other readers or commentators in this..thanks for your understanding.]]

    lol --Perfect example of how you twist things yet again and simply refuse to understand a word that’s written.





    [[What proof you want, do you want me to say that you are right and I am wrong??
    does this convince you that I understood your comments and I am very intelligent person?? ]]
    That’s would be a very good start. Humility goes a long way. Deflating your ego is good for the soul.


    [[This blog is not written to please you or anyone]]
    We all know that.
    Its about you and your views on life which you confess you want to learn about. But evertime someone teaches you don’t like it.

    Anyway Ive said this a million times already. Until the next blog. And I hope there wont be occasion for me write.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. [[if you find it wonderful then thanks for your compliments but if you don't then also thanks.]]
      Trust me you don’t need to Thank me in either case because the message for you is not such.

      [[[Off course it doesn't matter for others who I am and I know this but it matters to me, so what are you trying to say here??]]
      You mean you didn’t get it. The message was simple that “You try to understand others”. No matter what your opinions, if you are unable to understand others then there will always be conflicts in this world.


      [[How many times you are going to repeat the same thing"]
      Hopefully not too often if you begin to understand.
      Due to not understanding each others religion and culture, and actions and language and way of life; people all over the world are in conflict.
      When this understanding will take place then the world will be a better place.
      You are always taking a dig at Hindus for no good reasons due to your many misconceptions and lack of understanding of the Hindu religion. Now is a good time to try and understand it.

      Delete
    2. Again your all comments are repeating the same thing...let me say this once again and hopefully you will get it this time...
      I 'UNDERSTOOD' what you want to say, I have no problem with that, you can consider Krishna super Godhead or whatever you like who am I to question it, I am totally fine with your assumptions and beliefs...I never questioned them..rather you questioned my hypothesis...you said I am wrong...you said I dont have right to write this or that...so the conflict is not from my side but from your side...

      I have my understanding and you have your, I don't have any, absolutely any problem with your theory then if understanding each other is so important, then why are you questioning my theory...I have full freedom to express it and I am ready to offer my explanations for my belief, you don't agree then give counter evidence or simply express your disagreement and move on, there is no question of right or wrong here, we are talking about mythology and philosophy not history or physics, is it that difficult?

      I am not taking dig at Hindus, I myself belong to that religion and I am very proud of it..so come out of that misunderstanding. Whenever necessary I write about other religions also.

      Delete
    3. [[Its about you and your views on life which you confess you want to learn about. But evertime someone teaches you don’t like it.]]
      How can you say I don't like it..(again assumption)..I like all comments but may not agree with them..so what a big deal. If I am convinced by your argument then only I will accept it, as a student also I never accepted anything blindly, unless I was convinced I didn't agree, is there any problem in this. You are also not convinced by my argument and you didn't agree, that's fine and I can totally understand but you seem to have problem with my disagreement, I don't have any issues.

      [[If you understand why people say their God is superior then DON’T make comments suggesting they are wrong to say this.]]
      WHY I CAN'T MAKE COMMENTS?? what's the problem in expressing my opinion? am I doing anything illegal here? and I am not questioning their hypothesis about superiority of their God, just showing that there is other side to the story also. I am fine with all Gods.

      [Asking for clarification then NOT accepting the answers given is not what I call ‘asking for clarification’.]
      I accepted your explanation, where did I say that I don't accept..I never agreed to it..and I think that right is with everyone...I understood all answers given by you but didn't agree...I am sure you also must have understood all point made by me but didn't agree to them..than where is the problem?? Why it's only you feeling that other person is not listening??

      Delete
    4. [You are ready to agree with someone who says false things about Ramas feelings. You argue that Kans is not a killer just like Krishna is not. You give poor examples to your son about Krishna]

      Its my choice with whom to agree or not to agree, similarly you have same choice. I have my own views about Ram or Krishna you may not agree with them and that's fine with me, I can not decide whether your views are true or false similarly you also can't do it..I wonder who is judging here??

      I didn't say Kans is not a killer, kindly produce the evidence..I didn't give any poor example to my son about Krishna..this is again your assumption, my conversation with my son is not even mentioned in the blog.

      [You might think your answers are wonderful and righteous but they are not.]
      Judgmental?? and yes, they are wonderful and righteous..and I am proud of them that's why I write.

      [I was trying to explain the errors of your writing/thinking]
      I already said please point out any errors in English, I really appreciate that. Errors in thinking? what is this? Can you teach anyone what to think? I don't see any error in your thinking...superb..may be your teachers taught you what to think but I was taught how to think not what to think..may be this is the basic and major difference between you and me...

      Now the whole picture is clear to me...thanks for clarifying it. I already mentioned this in my comment that I don't tech anyone (including my kids) what to think. I enjoyed the discussion and learned many things from it, thanks for your efforts and time. I hope you also had the same feeling. It was great, enjoyable experience for me.

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  7. [[I have my understanding and you have your, ]]


    lol
    You are unbelievable at a loss.
    Totally futile to talk to you.

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    Replies
    1. lols....it took so much time for you to realize this;-)...I also feel same way [You are unbelievable at a loss] but for me it was not futile or waste of time to discus things with you...

      Delete
  8. If you sincerely mean, what you say in the title of this blog, that means you are spiritual or a seeker :), at least according to Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev in this brilliant interview along with actress Nandita Das.

    Jump to 10:43 of the below video (the link below should automatically start at that time), the clinching quote comes at 11:15. He says EXACTLY what the title of your blog says.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzOki-nRvAA&t=10m43s

    I hope you truly are neither a theist nor an atheist (that is very different from being AGAINST theists and atheists).

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    1. Thanks a lot for sharing the video...yes I am a seeker and according to me every scientist is a seeker or I think every person is a seeker. The video is very good, Jaggi Vasudev talks so many things which make sense and I read and also listen so many of his talks, many of them are excellent.

      Yes, I am neither theist or atheist, I accept everything at the same time I question everything. I don't subscribe myself to any single philosophy, that's what I mean when I say I am neither theist nor atheist.

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    2. Literal (or intellectual) translation of scriptures like Bible or Bhagavad Gita is fraught with danger. In a certain sense, several statements in these scriptures cannot be understood intellectually. Jesus says in the Bible "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6. Krishna says something similar in the Bhagavad Gita.

      I think a true devotee would understand these statements much more easily than a rationalist or a fundamentalist. Not necessarily devotee of Krishna or Jesus. True devotee of anybody or anything. Only to a true devotee these statements make sense (without having to hate or judge other fellow humans to be inferior or hell-bound).

      I have to be careful when using words like devotee or Guru. Unfortunately, these words have been so distorted by the media (especially in India, and on youtube videos). Spiritual Gurus are highlighted as sex-hungry and/or money-hungry and/or fame-hungry and/or power-hungry fake "God-men" (a derogatory word mostly used in Indian Media) who take advantage of innocent people.

      Devotees (especially of a living Guru) are branded as gullible, innocent, mentally-weak individuals who have been brainwashed into being radical fans of their Guru or God.

      Traditional definition of devotee is someone who fears God or who is in awe of God/Guru, steadfastly does his prayers and rituals, worships Him all the time, bows down to Him or submits to Him, considers himself inferior to God/Guru etc.

      But my definition of a devotee is just someone who is completely/totally/truly in love. Nothing less. He/She is just madly in love with the Divine (or his/her Guru/God).

      To a devotee (in my definition), the entire Universe is a stage, where God dances with him/her, where God plays "hide-and-seek" with him/her. A devotee is far beyond the duality of right-and-wrong, of moral-and-immoral, of true-and-false of reality-and-imagination, beyond all logic. To him/her, life, their very existence is a celebration with God, a game played with God. This is what is beautifully (mind-blowingly) symbolized in Krishna's Rasaleela Dance with the Gopis.

      This is just not about devotion in Hinduism. You should read about Islamic Saint Rumi's love affair with the Divine. As he says:

      “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
      and rightdoing there is a field.
      I'll meet you there".

      Same thing with Meera or with South Indian Saint Annamiah or with the beautiful Christian Saint St Assisi.

      As another Sufi Saint says "Kaun Kehta hai ki Khuda nazar nahi aata? Deewanon se poocho, Khuda ke siwa aur kuch nazar nahi aata."

      Coming back to the translation of the scriptures, intellectual or logical translation of statements like the above one of Jesus or the one in Bhagavad Gita would mean that Jesus/Krishna are saying "Worship Me or you have no chance of Heaven" :).

      But to understand such scriptures (in a way they make you feel blissful) you really need a spiritual Guru (your own Guru). By spiritual Guru, I do not mean someone with a lot of Knowledge, or someone whom you worship or someone at whose feet you fall because he/she is superior.

      Guru is very personal and very subjective phenomenon. That is why, it is said that Guru is a happening, you can't plan for it (a bit like falling in love). If your seeking is sincere, Guru happens in your life.

      Now, Guru need not be a person or an individual, it could be a plant or a stone or a new friend or someone you already know or one of the famous spiritual Gurus or even someone from the past (Jesus/Krishna/Sai Baba etc.).

      Just some plug-point, some hook, that makes you feel connected with the whole of Existence. Name+form+type of plug-point does not matter as long as you feel connected.

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    3. Maybe, just maybe, below videos could help you better understand what Jesus/Krishna meant. They might help you to avoid the traps of egoistic or syntactical translations.

      But it really depends on how well you connect with the speakers in the video.

      When I say, "connect with the speaker", I do NOT imply that you worship the speaker or regard them as someone superior to you.

      By "connection", I mean, you don't judge or you don't particularly care about the speaker or his intention while listening to his words. You are focused completely on the words, rather than trying to quantify or measure the speaker or his intentions.

      It is almost as if the spoken words are coming out of empty space or a non-entity (not any particular individual or entity about whom you have positive or negative judgments).

      Again, it is NOT at all necessary to believe those words or disbelieve them. If you feel connected, the words make perfect sense to you (more like a reminder or realization of something that you already know, rather than a learning).

      If their words don't make sense to you or strike your heart, that is perfect too. It does NOT mean you are any less qualified.

      Just notice if your mind is judging/guessing/rating/measuring the speaker or listening to the words. Bring your mind to the words, rather than trying to judge the intention of the speaker.

      You can do the judging of the speaker after you complete the listening.

      But while listening, try to focus on the words and see if they make any sense. You don't have to conclude on the words by believing them or disbelieving them.

      BTW, most of these videos have nothing to do with Jesus or Krishna. They are just some people's experiences within themselves. It is also quite possible, you might have already heard some of these talks. But do hear them again, especially from the time-stamps I have mentioned. They shouldn't take much of your time.

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    4. Video 1: (16 minutes)
      Sadhguru's TED Talk. It is a 16 minute talk. He starts off slowly, transitions gradually to deeper and deeper levels from 04:00. From 11:17 till the end, he goes in to the details brilliantly:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXAPiksRS_M

      Video 2: (6 minutes)
      "Sex Swami" Nithyananda's Enlightenment Experience. Please watch this video only after you have watched the first 2 videos. The video starts directly at 15:33. He uses simple words/analogies from 16:44 to 21:40. Although the video is long, you can just watch the 6 minute section from 15:33 to 21:40 (focusing mainly from 16:44 to 21:40).
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q7pkfh1PN4&t=15m33s&end=t21m40s&version=3
      (if the above link does not work, please try the below link):
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q7pkfh1PN4&t=15m33s


      Video 3: (4 minutes)
      The below link should automatically start the video at 7:01. This video is the starting point in understanding what Krishna/Jesus mean by "Worship Me. I am the only way". But this video will not make any sense unless you have watched the earlier 2 videos :).
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3im2RqRcfE&t=7m1s

      Video 4: (7 minutes)
      This final video explains the statements of Jesus/Krishna in great detail. This is a very tricky, very powerful video. If you do not feel connected with the speaker, there is a very high probability that you will judge him as someone with huge ego and pride (basically you will be put-off by him). You need not watch after the 7th minute, as he digresses to another topic.

      Again, this video will not make any sense unless you have watched the first 3 videos:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xDiU8n3sYA

      BTW, this is not to tell you about Hinduism in particular. After watching the above videos, just read this poem by Islamic Saint Bulleh Shah:
      http://sufipoetry.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/makkeh-gaya-bulleh-shah/

      I am not sending these videos to convince you of some philosophy or to make you believe in somebody and something. I immensely enjoyed the videos while listening to them. I hope you enjoy them too. I also hope you don't make any sort of conclusions (either positive or negative) about abstract things or the speakers after watching the videos.

      If you still have time after reading this looooong post and watching the above videos :), you can watch the below videos (by totally different people):
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNT-0DxUz8Q
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRIndmiKyU

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    5. Thanks a lot for your comment and all the links...I listened to Nityanand's so many other talks also and many of them are nice, but again I take whatever is relevant for me from all his or Sadguru's or Sri Sri or Javed Akhtar or any one's talks, they all teach me something good. I listen and read many of them including talks of so called Gurus, enlightened people, atheists (like Richard Dawkins) and all of them teach me something and my all logic and thinking is based on all this information which I collect and analyze, and if I am convinced, I keep whatever I find useful and discard or question whatever I think is not useful or find questionable.

      I live by this simple philosophy, this makes things very simple for me, I don't have problems with anyone, theist, atheist, skeptics, devotees or these Gurus..they all are enjoying their life in their own ways and trying to have nice time on this planet and I am also doing the same...we all are doing the same...most these videos are interesting and nice to watch, thanks again.

      Delete
  9. Listening and learning is very good. When it comes to this, one need not distinguish between the so called "Enlightened" Gurus (like Sadhguru or Sri Sri Ravi Shankar) and "normal" people (like Richard Dawkins for example). When it comes to learning, if one's mind is open (like yours for example), one can learn from practically anything and anybody in this Existence (whatever their philosophy). Not copy everything from them (or blindly agreeing with everything they say, even if they are Gurus) but take whatever works for one.

    But the thing is, listening and learning can only take one so far. Without actualization (or transmission of actual Experience), teachings - as inspirational as they may be - are merely theories, empty words. This is where the Enlightened Gurus like Sri Sri Ravi Shankar or Nithyananda or Sadhguru and set themselves apart.

    The Spiritual exercises given by Masters (like for example Sudarshan Kriya by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar or Life-Bliss Mediation by Swami Nithyananda), transmit the experience. These experiences are instrumental in realizing that Universe or Existence isn't just the way I see it (or used to see it), there is a lot more to it. Not just the Universe, even "I" am not the way I used to feel/think about myself, "I" am a lot more.

    Once one Experience of life or feeling of being alive is enhanced (different from learning), one decreases living in words/theories/messages/discourses. Not that one becomes averse to discourses and messages. These still are good to hear (and if anything, with better perception brought by the Spiritual exercises, the teachings take a much deeper meaning than before).

    However, just like physical exercise, spiritual Exercise take time to sprout (you don't get a great body by going to Gym for one week or even one month, right?). This is where, patience, trust and faith in the Master/Guru come in to the picture.

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    1. For me everyone is enlightened in their own way whether it is Sri Sri or Dr Dawkins, Einstein, Sadguru, Mr. Akhtar they all are very knowledgeable and talented people, at the same time they all are humans like me, I don't copy or follow them blindly. If I find any logic or philosophy interesting I follow it, read about it more, analyze it and accept it, very simple, doesn't matter from where it's coming from.

      I practice yoga (you can call it spiritual exercise if you like) and I really enjoy it, but there are many techniques like this and one can choose whatever suits them. These all people and many more in this world know something more than me about some subjects and at the same time I know something more than many of them about certain issues, they have their opinion and I have mine, some places we agree and some places we don't. I will ask my questions to them whenever I will get chance and try to get their opinion and if convinced I will change mine and if they are convinced about my argument I hope they will change their's but I don't expect it.

      These people are doing their work and having a good time and I am doing my work and having a good time, I see it this way may be you don't and that's fine.

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    2. Oh, I wasn't insinuating that Javed Akhtar or Albert Einstien or Richard Dawkins are/were unEnlightened or are/were in some way inferior to Sadhguru and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. I guess I should have worded it better. There is no way I can tell who is Enlightened and who isn't.

      I feel Blessed that I have actually been in the physical presence of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sadhguru, Swami Nithyananda and others, and have learnt, practiced and tried out their processes.

      While I can't say that my experience with every Saint/Guru (including several famous ones) that I tried out was great, but my experiences, at least with these three, was simply mind-blowing (to say the least).

      Regarding what I consider definition of Enlightenment, anyone who has had a conscious experience of dissolution of body boundaries is Enlightened in my mind. Basically disappearance of -- "This is me. That is not me, that is someone else" -- as a conscious experience.

      As Sri Sri Ravi Shankar beautifully puts it - "Enlightenment is an experiential journey from being a somebody to being a nobody to being everything and everybody".

      From what I know, dawning of this experience has NOTHING to do with age/sex/nationality/religion/race/profession/spiritual knowledge/educational qualifications etc. From what I know, it could dawn on anybody (even a prostitute, a criminal, a thief, a film-actor, a porn-artist, a terrorist, an economist, a vegetable-seller, a house-wife, a super-rich corrupt politician or anybody), and what makes it even more mind-boggling, amusing and concept-shattering is that those people can continue with their profession (even if it is illegal and immoral as per society), while being in that experience.

      One of the best descriptions of this experience actually came to me personally from a "Christian" mystic from USA, who has never been to India or an Indian Guru or heard of Hinduism. He just got "zapped" during a Church visit. Another Norwegian girl got similarly "zapped" when she was walking from her Kitchen to her dining room.

      Although they definitely have a human body, I don't know about them being humans or not (that is a really bold statement). What I do know, from my interaction with them, is that their perception of this Universe, this Existence is vastly different from my perception. What I also know is that their whole endeavor is to help enhance the perception of every human-being on planet earth to it's peak (which is where they are).

      When Sri Sri Ravi Shankar was accosted by a skeptic and asked "What is the difference between you and me?", Sri Sri's brilliant reply was "The difference is - I don't see or feel or experience any difference, but you definitely do."

      What is astonishing is how consistently the same their experiences were, but yet how each used completely different words, analogies to illustrate it. This is why I sent you Sadhguru's TED talk and Nithyananda's Seattle interview as the first 2 videos.

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    3. What I also observed is that when Enlightened Beings (or rather people with such expanded perception) translate the holy books, the meaning is drastically different from literal translation. Yogananda Paramahamsa's translation of the Bible, a 100 years back, is an excellent example. As a reviewer of that book in amazon.com writes "Imagine if Jesus explained to you what the Bible meant and took all the confusion away".

      http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-Coming-Christ-Resurrection/product-reviews/0876125577/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


      In one of your posts, you said this (that is what I was addressing all this while):

      "If you say that we do not know the definition of God then what is the stuff mentioned in all those holy books? They all define their concept of God in their own way and people choose whichever they like."

      My entire point is that a lot of stuff mentioned in all the holy books is basically senseless (or nonsense) unless you are in the same dimension of perception as the person or people who wrote those books. This literal translation has been one of the causes of all hatred, strife and discrimination in the world.

      My posts aren't about pitting Javed Akhtar with Sadhguru, they are about the above statement of yours regarding definition of God in the holy books.

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    4. Thanks a lot for sharing your experience with these eminent personalities. I agree with you totally that all these people have tremendous experience in their own field of expertise and have developed or reintroduced many techniques from Yoga which are very useful even in today's world. As I said I myself attend their workshops or lectures whenever possible and get benefited by their knowledge.

      At the same time let me also tell you that I had similar experience when I heard many other people (some of them I included in my comment), lectures from Yale or Harvard open courses on life, death or western philosophy (specially Plato) and had similar experience and felt amazing, enlightened or happy.

      You are also right that knowledge can come from any where and any one, their education or social status doesn't matter and that's what I follow in my life, for me everyone is my teacher, including my own kids. For me knowledge is present in every book and every individual is capable of teaching me something. All these holy books (popular term used for them) are excellent source of some particular type of knowledge, one can call it spirituality or religion or philosophy, and there are many many other books which are equally good in content, teach similar things and I enjoy all of them and as I wrote many times in my comments I take whatever is relevant for me from all these books and leave the rest.

      If I see any tradition or belief which is wrong according to me I question it, then don't care from which book it is or from which religion it belongs. This is what I follow for selecting my blog topics also. As a student of science I have been taught to question everything.

      According to me all translations are that particular authors personal take or opinion about those books, all these holy books are in poetic form and different people interpret them differently, people like certain interpretation and they feel close to that book compared to others and I totally understand this. I my self love to read as many different translations as I can so that I can get different views about the same topic from different angles, this is just how I am.

      [My entire point is that a lot of stuff mentioned in all the holy books is basically senseless (or nonsense) unless you are in the same dimension of perception as the person or people who wrote those books.]

      very true, and not only for holy books this is true for any book or any person, if one has to understand Richard Dawkins or any other skeptic then also one has to think at the same dimension or with same angle he or she is thinking.

      I am glad that you had really wonderful experiences at all these gatherings and again thanks for sharing it, I really appreciate it.

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